Steve, T*he Alignment Problem*, by Brian Christian https://www.amazon.com/dp/0393868338/?bestFormat=true&k=the%20alignment%20problem&ref_=nb_sb_ss_w_scx-ent-pd-bk-d_de_k0_1_9&crid=HE3S012O7RZC&sprefix=the%20align
davew On Tue, Jun 3, 2025, at 2:36 PM, steve smith wrote: > One of my ongoing "salon" chats (me drinking tequila while chatting with GPT > about excruciatingly abstract ideations that ramble through my head and GPT > indulges me) has been on the question of "alignment". > > Not in the sense of how to coerce/seduce/constrain AI development to follow a > path that leads to it's *alignment* with human values (whatever that is and > do we even come close to aligning in any way among ourselves). > > Rather in the sense of trying to understand (perhaps with the help of LLM's > absurdly large base of human-knowledge convolved with it's abusrdly large > number of correlative/inferential operations it can do on subsets of that > data and my own input/interactions) how the "enlightened self interest" of > something as near and dear as an individual human organism and that of > perhaps "humanity at large", "the biosphere", and even broader, the unfolding > universe as a Complex Adaptive System (at least) or panConsciousness (at > most?) might all be aligned if the frame is pulled back far enough. If our > conception of each of the three terms: *enlightenment*; *self*; *interest* > are generous and broad and inclusive enough? > > Woo woo! > > On 6/3/25 1:18 PM, glen wrote: >> IDK. I get the feeling each of us is a little right and a little wrong. The >> poisoning of the Memphis air by Grok >> <https://youtu.be/3VJT2JeDCyw?si=-zH1AIgCpJ_fcdPd> is a fantastic example of >> why Capitalism is (has been) failing, despite its early success. It's not >> that we're all greedy pigs. Yes, *some* of us might be. But even Elno isn't >> merely a greedy pig. >> >> The problem is externalities, the things we can't even register for whatever >> reason. If Pieter (and Marcus in a different way) are right, what AI might >> be able to do that we have trouble doing is taking in a wider array of data. >> Maybe not *all* the data, but a much wider array than even our mega-machines >> like FedEx or Amazon logistics can't manage. >> >> The problem with that horizon is that there's a ton of work to be done to >> get there. And poisoning poor minorities on the way to that horizon isn't >> helping *us* do that work. Again, anyone who uses Grok is actively poisoning >> Memphis. That's an externality. I can't blame Grok users for being so >> stupid-or-evil because that's what Capitalism does to us. >> >> So, I end up landing with Jochen on this one. Even if there's a possible way >> to thread this needle, we prolly won't make it. And evil scum like Elno will >> help ensure our failure. But to be clear, I have no children and will be >> dead soon. So c'est la vie: >> https://www.npr.org/2025/05/31/nx-s1-5418932/we-all-are-going-to-die-ernst-joni-town-hall-iowa-senator >> >> >> On 6/3/25 12:01 PM, steve smith wrote: >>> Roger Critchlow wrote: >>>> The core problem is that people are greedy little pigs. Some are greedier >>>> than others and some are more successful in pursuing their greed, but >>>> we're all pigs and if offered the chance to take a little more for >>>> ourselves, we take it. Scale that up and it's tragedies of the commons >>>> all the way down. >>>> >>>> -- rec -- >>> and somehow, our elevating of individuals and groups to positions of >>> (political, spiritual, moral) authority/power over ourselves (everyone >>> else?) to try to either limit this greed or mitigate its consequences has >>> had mixed results and coupled with (other) technologies has lead to an >>> iterative "kicking the can down the road" which keeps raising the stakes as >>> the (only?) way to avoid the current disaster we are facing? >>> >>> Is there any evidence or suggestion that the emerging AI overlords >>> (monotheistic, pantheonic, animistic, panconscious) will be more >>> clever/able/powerful enough to end this cycle? >>> >>> Or (as I think Pieter implies) this framing is just "all wrong" and there >>> is something like platonic "manifest destiny" that will lead us forward >>> through the chaos of our own technological shockwaves? Is "the >>> Singularity" just the instant when we reach conceptual Mach1 and we catch >>> up with our bow-wave in the Kauffmanian "adjacent possible"? We just need >>> to keep accelerating until we break that "barrier"? >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2025 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> One core problem is we have unleashed global capitalism and seems to >>>> destroy the planet. Once the planet has been destroyed and polluted it >>>> will be difficult to restore. Communism does not work because nobody had >>>> an incentive to work since nobody owned anything. Capitalism does not work >>>> because nobody has an incentive to protect nature. It means ruthless and >>>> relentless exploitation of everything to make profit. >>>> >>>> >>>> As much as I would like to be hopeful about the future I don't see >>>> radical abundance at all. It is true that AI systems become more and more >>>> powerful. They soon will be able to take away even the good, creative jobs >>>> like writing, translating, coding and designing. This means massive >>>> unemployment. In combination with high inflation this will most likely be >>>> devastating. >>>> >>>> >>>> If we look at the past what happened if prices went up radically and >>>> jobs were lost on a massive scale is that people become outraged and angry >>>> and then some demagogue comes along and deflects their anger and outrage >>>> towards group xy [immigrants or black people or LGBTQ folks or some other >>>> minority group] which is to blame for everything and he is the only man >>>> who can solve it because he is a strong man, etc. and we end up in a world >>>> world ruled by strongmen, each of them ruler of a great power having a >>>> sphere of influence and strategic interest in which they allow no >>>> opposition. In this autocratic world the big and strong countries decide >>>> the fate of their smaller neighbors and anyone who disagrees vanishes in >>>> an artic gulag or horrible prison in mesoamerica. >>>> >>>> >>>> As Edward O. Wilson said "The real problem of humanity is the >>>> following: We have Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions and godlike >>>> technology. And it is terrifically dangerous, and it is now approaching a >>>> point of crisis overall." >>>> >>>> >>>> -J. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: Pieter Steenekamp <[email protected]> >>>> Date: 6/2/25 2:06 AM (GMT+01:00) >>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Limits to Growth >>>> >>>> It seems I’m the only one here who’s feeling hopeful about the future >>>> of humanity. I don’t think civilisation is about to fall apart. In fact, I >>>> believe we’re heading towards a time of radical abundance. >>>> >>>> I was going to prove this by asking my crystal ball… but sadly, the >>>> batteries are flat. So you’ll just have to trust me when I say I know the >>>> truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. >>>> >>>> Of course, many of you probably think you have the real truth. And >>>> maybe you're right! >>>> >>>> I guess the honest thing to say is: the future is unknowable. We can >>>> all make good arguments, quote experts, and write long replies—but there >>>> simply isn’t enough evidence to say with high confidence what the future >>>> holds for humanity. >>>> >>>> To end off: yes, I agree that without further innovation, we could be >>>> in serious trouble. But a strong counterpoint is that, over the last few >>>> hundred years, human creativity has helped us overcome challenge after >>>> challenge. >>>> >>>> Unless someone shares a new angle I haven’t heard yet, I’ll leave it >>>> here and won’t post again on this thread. >>>> >>>> On Sun, 1 Jun 2025 at 22:41, Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Texas uses a lot more electricity than California despite being a >>>> smaller economy. What’s interesting is that there is no one sink for >>>> that power. It isn’t pumping (although there is a lot of pumping), and >>>> it isn’t residential air conditioning or data centers. It’s bigger >>>> everything and an appetite to use power across the board. >>>> >>>> *From: *Friam <[email protected]> on behalf of steve smith >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> *Date: *Sunday, June 1, 2025 at 12:18 PM >>>> *To: *[email protected] <[email protected]> >>>> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] Limits to Growth >>>> >>>> As we know, I'm of the school of thought that (techno) Utopian and >>>> Dystopian visions are two sides of the same coin: >>>> >>>> <peak-oil> >>>> >>>> I think peak oil (fossil-fuels) is a real thing, now matter >>>> how much we slide the timescale with innovative ways to suck harder or >>>> deeper and burn it more efficiently... and in particular the side-effect >>>> of saturating the atmo(bio)sphere with carbon particulates, polymers (e.g. >>>> microplastics) and molecules (COn, CH4, etc) and the myriad attendant >>>> not-very-healthy-to-most-life chloroflouros and Nitrous-this-n-thats and >>>> ... on and on. We (in our technofuturist way) pretend we have maxwell >>>> demons or geni-rebottlers or pandora-box-refillers on the drawing boards >>>> which will do their work faster than entropy and in the particular >>>> techno-industrial concentrated-energy-fueled version thereof. >>>> >>>> Fossil fuels made us into an incredibly energy-hungry/wasteful >>>> society... I'm a fan of Switzerland's (nominal) 2000W society >>>> (aspiration), although the human *animal's* basal metabolic rate is <100W >>>> avg and peaks at 200-300W (burst performance athlete). The the nominal >>>> consumption for the western world is EU (5k) and US (10k) of which a big >>>> part from the infrastructure and other "hidden" sources like transport of >>>> food/goods across the planet for our appetite and convenience. The "global >>>> south" is considered to make it on 500-1500W. 8B humans at "subsistence" >>>> would demand 8tW continuous and at US rates, 80tW continuous. >>>> >>>> I haven't resolved this against DaveW's numbers but I take his >>>> to be order-of-magnitude accurate on principle. As we add supersonic and >>>> orbital-vacation transport I suspect we might jack that another 10X... >>>> not to (even) mention power-hungry crypto/AI demands? GPT (ironic no?) >>>> helped me guestimate 40w/user (engaged) continuous *currently*. A >>>> significant fraction of a carbon-frugal "budget" and a measurable plus-up >>>> on our gluttonous US (and even EU or CH) versions? >>>> >>>> </peak-oil> >>>> >>>> <EV-enthusiasm> >>>> >>>> I'm a big fan/early adopter (tinkerer really) of "electric >>>> vehicles" and renewable energy, but the numbers just don't work. I was >>>> hypermiling my Honda CRX (fit my oversized frame like a slipper or roller >>>> skate) long before there were viable production electrics or hybrids. I >>>> had the back half of a donor CRX ready to receive the rear differential >>>> of a miata or rx7 (same stance, similar suspension mounts) with a 90's >>>> brushless DC motor as well as a pair of VW cabriolets (running but one >>>> lame) as well for the same conception (early 2000s) when I scored a >>>> year1/gen1 Honda Insight (and a friend spun the CRX out in the rain)... >>>> so I gave up on my hypermiling (70mpg RT to Los Alamos, power up, coast >>>> home) for thoughtful Insight-driving. All three of these models were >>>> order 2k lbs. Most vehicles are/were 3k-6klbs. >>>> >>>> Along came the Chevy Volt (2011) and in 2016 I picked one up >>>> which had been used up... or at least the hybrid battery (at 166k miles). >>>> A used (95k mile) battery and a lot of tech work and it was back to full >>>> function. The VWs never broke 40mpg hypermiling, the CRX clocked 70mpg >>>> in ideal conditions, the Insight topped 50-55mpg with careful driving >>>> (hard to hypermile a CVT), and with the PHEV nature of the volt I can >>>> still pull >70mpg if I ignore the input from the grid. The old battery >>>> is offering about 10kWh of capacity for a homestead scale PV I'm >>>> assembling from $.10/W used solar panels mainly to buffer for the PHEV >>>> charging. Unfortunately the replacement Volt battery is finally getting >>>> lame and replacement is such a huge effort this 15 year old vehicle will >>>> go the way of many other 200k mile plus vehicles. I've backfilled with >>>> a low(er) mileage 2014 Ford C-Max PHEV with only about 10 miles (compared >>>> to new-30 in the volt) PHEV which I'm getting >>>> roughly the same effective MPG (still ignoring the grid >>>> input). I'm looking for a Gen2 Volt which had 50mile EV-only range >>>> (otherwise very similar to Gen1) as I might move *all* my semi-local miles >>>> to Electric (and supply them with used PV staged through the upcycled EV >>>> batteries?). >>>> >>>> FWIW, the anti-EV stories about the extra weight yielding >>>> accelerated brake/tire wear is specious in my experience. My *driving >>>> habits* in an EV (or hypermiled conventional/hybrid) obviate excess tire >>>> wear (no spinouts, no uber-accelleration/braking) and even a thoughtless >>>> driver likely gets more from regenerative braking than any excess weight >>>> abuse... I also claim that being MPG/consumption attunes my driving >>>> habits to fewer/shorter/slower trips. I have owned a few gas-guzzling >>>> vehicles in my life, including one I commuted too far in for a while... >>>> the 32 gallon tank convolved with peaking gas prices and a 60 mile RT >>>> commute that year should have warned me off... but instead I just closed >>>> my eyes and ran my plastic through the card reader 1.5 times per week... >>>> my housing cost differential paid the bill but without regard to the >>>> planet. I did give over to a carpool in a 30mpg vehicle (shared 3 ways) >>>> for a while which really beat the 15mpg 1-person I was >>>> doing otherwise. I went through a LOT more tire rubber and >>>> brake pads in that context than I ever did in years of hybrid/EV >>>> ownership. Did I say specious? Or at least apples-orangatans? >>>> >>>> </EV-enthusiasm> >>>> >>>> <Alt/Transport ideation> >>>> >>>> I also have my 750W (foldable) eBike which is (currently) >>>> impractical to me (closest services 10 miles of 4 lane) for anything but >>>> recreation/exercise and a 300W lower-body exoskeleton, each of which has >>>> much better "mpg" in principle (esp eBike) when hybridized with human >>>> calorie-to-kinetic conversion. I've a friend (10 years my senior) whose >>>> e-Recumbent-trike with similar specs is his primary mode of utility >>>> transport (under 20 miles RT). >>>> >>>> All that said, I don't think electromotifying 4-6klb hunks of >>>> steel and glass with environmental control suitable for 0F-120F comfort >>>> for 4+ people while traveling at 60+mph and making 0-60 accellerations in >>>> under 6 seconds is really a viable strategy for the 8B folks on the >>>> planet we want to sell them to. Esp with a useful lifetime of <15 >>>> years?(planned obselescence aside?). Maybe robo-taxi/rideshare versions >>>> in the context of (mostly) walkable cities (nod to JennyQ) and public >>>> transport and general local/regionalism is (semi) viable. >>>> >>>> </Alt-Transport ideation> >>>> >>>> <Local/Regionalism> >>>> >>>> I've got strawberry plants making me (from compost and >>>> sunlight) fewer berries in a season than I just bought at the grocery >>>> imported from MX for <$3 (on sale)... and my while I wait for my >>>> 3-sister's plantings to produce a few months of carbs/protein at-best the >>>> modern fossil-fuel/pollution global marketplace offers me the same for >>>> probably several tens of dollars? As a seed-saving, composter with a >>>> well (that could be pumped by solar but isn't) my impact on planetary >>>> boundaries could be nil to positive... but it is hard to scale this up >>>> even for myself, much less proselytize and/or support my neighbors in >>>> matching me. I cut Jeff Bezos off from my direct support (via Amazon >>>> purchases) when he aligned himself with the other TechBros aligning with >>>> the Orange Tyrant, so I may well have reduced my manufacturing/transport >>>> appetite/consumption a little (small amounts of that appetite moved to >>>> local traditional store-forward versions as well as direct-mail >>>> purchases from non-Amazon/big-box distributors). >>>> >>>> </Local-Regionalism> >>>> >>>> <TechnoUtopianism> >>>> >>>> I am a reformed technoUtopian... I grew up on "good >>>> old-fashioned future" science fiction (starting with scientific romances >>>> from the early industrial age) and studied and practiced my way into a >>>> science education and a technical career/lifestyle and wanted to believe >>>> for the longest time that we could always kick the can down the road a >>>> little harder/smarter/further each time and/or just "drive faster". And >>>> we are doing that somewhat effectively *still*, but in my many decades >>>> I've got more time glancing in the rear-view mirror to see the smoking >>>> wreckage behind us, as well as over the horizon to see how many of the >>>> negative consequences of our actions land on other folks who never came >>>> close to enjoying the benefits of that "progress". I guess that means >>>> this erstwhile libertarian has become a "self-loathing liberal". >>>> >>>> Or a convert to the Buddhist ideal of "Skillful Means"? >>>> >>>> </TechnoUtopianism> >>>> >>>> On 6/1/25 10:10 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> >>>> I think you are underestimating how much progress has been >>>> made with batteries in recent years. >>>> California has large solar resources, and it is not unusual >>>> that during the day the whole grid is powered by solar. Here is from last >>>> week. Note the huge surge of battery usage in the evening. Tens of >>>> gigawatts of generation power are planned for offshore wind too. >>>> >>>> Generally, though, I agree that much of the planet is >>>> completely addicted to oil, and there’s no technology that will yet handle >>>> air travel. Hydrogen might work, but it will take time. >>>> >>>> The way to break an addiction is to have the addict hit rock >>>> bottom. >>>> >>>> There need to be some scary climate events. The prices for >>>> energy need to increase before people change their ways. Redirecting >>>> energy into AI is one way to bring that to fruition. >>>> >>>> A chart of different colors Description automatically >>>> generated >>>> >>>> *From: *Friam <[email protected]> >>>> <mailto:[email protected]> on behalf of Prof David West >>>> <[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> *Date: *Sunday, June 1, 2025 at 8:27 AM >>>> *To: *[email protected] <[email protected]> >>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] Limits to Growth >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, it is almost certain that there will never be >>>> enough 'fossil fuel free power stations' to supply needed energy for >>>> electric vehicles. >>>> >>>> Data centers, driven in large part by AI demands and >>>> cryptocurrency will leave nothing left over. >>>> >>>> Some numbers: >>>> >>>> Three Mile Island, which is being recommissioned to supply >>>> power to a couple of Microsoft Data Centers, has a capacity of 7 Terawatt >>>> hours(T/w/h) per year. >>>> >>>> In 2022 data centers, globally, consumed 460 TWh, by 2026 this >>>> is estimated to be 1,000 Twh. By 2040 projected demand is 2,000-3,000 >>>> TWh. >>>> >>>> Crypto adds 100-150 TWh in 2022, 200-300 in 2030, and 400-600 >>>> in 2040. >>>> >>>> Nuclear is unlikely to provide more than 25% of this demand. >>>> >>>> Between now and 2040, it will be necessary to build 100 >>>> TMI-capacity nuclear plants to supply that 25%. >>>> >>>> If solar is to supply the other 75%, it will require between >>>> 66,000 and 80,000 square miles of solar panels. (Don't know how many >>>> batteries, but the number is not trivial.) >>>> >>>> Wind power, for that 75%, will require 153,000 to 214,000 >>>> turbines, each requiring 50-60 acres of space beneath them. (Also the >>>> problem of batteries.) >>>> >>>> It takes 10-15 years to build a nuclear plant like TMI, have >>>> no idea now many dollars. >>>> >>>> Neither solar nor wind, nor combined, can be installed fast >>>> enough to meet this demand and, again, have no idea of cost. >>>> >>>> Nothing left over for cars, the lights in your home and >>>> office, or to charge your phone: unless, of course we continue to rely on >>>> oil (shale and fracking), natural gas, and coal. >>>> >>>> davew >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 1, 2025, at 6:24 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: >>>> >>>> This is why I’m so excited about electric vehicles—I feel >>>> like a kid waiting for Christmas! Add clean fossil fuel free power >>>> stations into the mix, and voilà: abundant clean energy, no miracle >>>> inventions required. Just some clever tech and a whole lot of charging >>>> cables! >>>> >>>> On Sun, 1 Jun 2025 at 12:57, Jochen Fromm >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I believe we all have a slighty distorted view because >>>> we were all born long after industrialization has started and have seen >>>> nothing but growth. Industrialization started around 200 years ago in >>>> Great Britain and spread shortly after to America and Europe. First by >>>> exploiting coal and steam engines, later by oil and petrol engines. Tanks, >>>> warplanes, warships as well as normal cars, planes and ships all consume >>>> oil. >>>> >>>> Richard Heinberg writes in his book "The End of >>>> Growth": "with the fossil fuel revolution of the past century and a half, >>>> we have seen economic growth at a speed and scale unprecedented in all of >>>> human history. We harnessed the energies of coal, oil, and natural gas to >>>> build and operate cars, trucks, highways, airports, airplanes, and >>>> electric grids - all the esential features of modern industrial society. >>>> Through the one-time-only process of extracting and burning hundreds of >>>> millions of years worth of chemically stored sunlight, we built what >>>> appeared (for a brief, shining moment) to be a perpetual-growth machine. >>>> We learned to take what was in fact an extraordinary situation for >>>> granted. It became normal [...] During the past 150 years, expanding >>>> access to cheap and abundar fossil fuels enabled rapid economic expansion >>>> at an average rate of about three percent per year; economic planners >>>> began to take this situain for granted. Financial systems >>>> internalized the expectation of growth as a promise of >>>> returns on investments." >>>> >>>> >>>> https://richardheinberg.com/bookshelf/the-end-of-growth-book >>>> >>>> Heinberg argues the time of cheap and abundant fossil >>>> fuels has come to an end. There 1.5 billion cars in the world which >>>> consume oil and produce CO2. Resources are depleted while pollution and >>>> population have reached all time highs. It is true that humans are >>>> innovative and ingenious, especially in times of scarcity, necessity and >>>> need, and we are able to find replacements for depleted resources, but >>>> Heinberg argues in his book "Peak Everything: that "in a finite world, the >>>> number of possible replacements is also finite". For example we were able >>>> to replace the whale oil by petroleum, but finding a replacement for >>>> petroleum is much harder. >>>> >>>> https://richardheinberg.com/bookshelf/peak-everything >>>> >>>> Without oil no army would move, traffic would cease, >>>> no container or cruise ship would be able to go anywhere and therefore >>>> international trade and tourism would stop. On the bright side no more >>>> plastic and CO2 pollution either. >>>> >>>> In his book "End of Growth" Heinberg mentions >>>> "transition towns" as a path towards a more sustainable society and an >>>> economy which is not based on fossil-fuels. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://donellameadows.org/archives/rob-hopkins-my-town-in-transition/ >>>> >>>> French author Victor Hugo wrote 200 years ago that >>>> "the paradise of the rich is made out of the hell of the poor". If rich >>>> people start to realize this and help to find a way to a more sustainable, >>>> livable society it would be a start. >>>> >>>> -J. >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> >>>> From: Pieter Steenekamp <[email protected]> >>>> >>>> Date: 5/31/25 5:46 AM (GMT+01:00) >>>> >>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Limits to Growth >>>> >>>> I’ve always loved the Simon-Ehrlich bet story—two >>>> clever guys betting on the future of the planet. Ehrlich lost the bet, but >>>> the debate still runs circles today. >>>> >>>> https://ourworldindata.org/simon-ehrlich-bet >>>> >>>> This article nails it: over the long term, prices >>>> mostly go down, not up, as innovation kicks in. We don’t "run out" of >>>> resources—we get better at using them. Scarcity shifts, but human >>>> creativity shifts faster. >>>> >>>> The Limits to Growth folks had good intentions, but >>>> the real limit seems to be how fast we can adapt and rethink. And so far, >>>> we’re doing okay—messy, uneven, but okay. >>>> >>>> Turns out, betting against human ingenuity is the real >>>> risky business. >>>> >>>> On Fri, 30 May 2025 at 21:51, steve smith >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> REC - >>>> >>>> Very timely... I did a deep dive/revisit (also >>>> met the seminal work in college in the 70s) into Limits to Growth and >>>> World3 before the Stockholm workshop on Climate (and other existential >>>> threats) Complexity Merle wrangled in 2019.... and was both impressed and >>>> disappointed. Rockstrom and folks were located right across the water from >>>> us where we met but to my knowledge didn't engage... their work was very >>>> complementary but did not feel as relevant to me then as it does now. >>>> >>>> In the following interview, I felt he began to >>>> address many of the things I (previously) felt were lacking in their >>>> framework previoiusly. It was there all the time I'm sure, I just didn't >>>> see it and I think they were not ready to talk as broadly of implications >>>> 5 years ago as they are now? >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6_3mOgvrN4 >>>> >>>> Did anyone notice the swiss village inundated by >>>> debris and meltwater from the glacier collapse uphill? Signs of the >>>> times or "business as usual"? >>>> >>>> - SAS >>>> >>>> On 5/30/25 12:16 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://thenextwavefutures.wordpress.com/2025/05/20/limits-to-growth-was-right-about-overshoot-and-collapse-new-data/ >>>> >>>> I remember the Limits to Growth from my >>>> freshman year in college. Now Hackernews links to the above in which some >>>> people argue that we've achieved the predicted overshoot for the business >>>> as usual scenario and the subsequent collapse begins now. Enjoy the peak >>>> of human technological development. >> > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... > --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > *Attachments:* > • OpenPGP_0xD5BAF94F88AFFA63.asc > • OpenPGP_signature.asc
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