Thanks, DaveW — I’ll definitely get hold of the book; it looks fascinating!
I’m genuinely excited about what future scientific discoveries might reveal in this area. I (weakly) doubt that our current AI frameworks will crack building a human comparable AI, but who knows? Perhaps new paradigms will emerge, and someone will build a Turing-machine-type mind that eventually surpasses the human mind — and maybe even helps us answer these deep questions. I'd love to see that happen, though I remain a bit skeptical. Maybe it will require a quantum computer, or something else entirely beyond what we can currently imagine. I have a strong faith in science — but not always in scientists’ opinions. After all, one of the top physicists of the 19th century, Albert Michelson, famously declared just before the advent of quantum mechanics: “There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement.” History had other plans. On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 20:55, Prof David West <[email protected]> wrote: > There are a number of pretty interesting, quasi-paradoxes, surrounding > non-self and concepts like will, choice, and action that, at minimum, imply > a "selfy-thing." > > My very first course in Buddhist philosophy (fall 1968 at Macalester > College with Professor David White) raised the question: "if there is no > self, what reincarnates?" The answer was involved enough it would have been > worthy of a graduate seminar all by itself. Same thing for the "complex > web" you mention but not the "conditioned responses." Something more akin > to patterns arising from localized strange attractors within the context of > the Self (Atman). > > If you want to explore the concepts from your MOOC further, I highly > recommend Alex Comfort's book, *Reality and Empathy. *[Yes, it is the > same Alex Comfort who wrote *The Joy of Sex*.] > > davew > > > On Wed, Jun 11, 2025, at 10:57 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: > > Many moons ago, I worked through a fascinating MOOC by Robert Wright > titled *Buddhism and Modern Psychology.* The course promo included the > following: > > *One of the core principles of Buddhism is the concept of ‘non-self.’ This > means that there is no permanent, unchanging self that exists independently > of the constantly changing physical and mental processes that make up our > experience. This idea can be challenging to grasp, but it is a fundamental > aspect of the Buddhist worldview.* > > The course takes an agnostic stance on the spiritual aspects of Buddhism > and instead focuses on how Buddhist practices align with insights from > modern psychology. I found it all deeply intriguing. > > Now, if I may share my "expert" opinion (imagine someone saying: "Pieter > is such a humble person — he has so much to be humble about")… While > Buddhism denies a permanent self, it still makes space for will and choice > — not as free-floating expressions of some fixed essence, but as part of a > complex web of conditioned processes. > > On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 15:26, Prof David West <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > A minor curiosity, > > If there is "free will" it is essential that there is a "willer;" that > which wills freely. What is it? > > Non-individuated consciousness/intelligence would not seem to be > sufficient; only an "I" will do. > > But, to a [Vedist | Taoist | Buddhist | Alchemist | ...] there is not such > thing as an "I," only the illusion of one. Similarly a material-monist > (Marcus?) or a behavior-monist (Nick!) an "I" is nothing in itself, merely > an epiphenomenon, neither a metaphysical nor ontological thing. > > It would seem that any argument, pro/con, for free will is dependent on a > convincing argument for the existence of an "I" whether embodied in silicon > or flesh. > > davew > > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2025, at 8:09 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: > > I have two hats. When I wear Hat #1, I don't think humans have free will.. > > In this view, our minds are what happen when lots of physical, > deterministic processes take place—not just in the brain, but possibly in > all the cells of the body. There might be a bit of quantum randomness > involved, but nothing too wild—we can probably understand and model it > pretty well. So, from this perspective, free will doesn’t really exist. > We’re following the rules of physics, whether we like it or not. > > I don’t think current AI systems are yet capable of reproducing something > like the human mind, but in theory, I believe it’s possible. Maybe it’ll > happen soon. Maybe it’ll take much longer. But the idea itself is not > far-fetched. And even if we don’t get full human-like AI anytime soon, the > progress I expect from today’s "narrow" AI will still be enormous. Within a > decade or two, I think we’ll see major advances and a kind of radical > abundance in goods and services. > > Then I switch to Hat #2. > > This hat still believes in science, but it questions whether today’s > scientific model of reality is enough to fully explain the human mind. > > I asked Grok about Roger Penrose’s view on free will. The response was: > > “Roger Penrose, a renowned physicist and philosopher, believes free will > is a real phenomenon, rooted in the complex interplay of quantum mechanics > and consciousness. His ideas challenge traditional views, suggesting our > choices may stem from non-computable processes in the brain, beyond simple > cause-and-effect. While controversial, his work offers a fascinating > perspective on how we make decisions.” > > (Full version here: https://x.com/i/grok/share/aqBDuYD1GxnPOaUSu02UcP4uB) > > To me, this isn’t mysticism—it’s serious, thoughtful science. And if we > want to test these ideas, Seth Lloyd’s “Turing test for free will” is > another example of proper science being used to explore difficult questions. > > On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 01:19, steve smith <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 6/10/25 3:26 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > This conversation is well into bad faith now. I’m done. > > Let me dig into my reserves of "good faith" for those who might not have > already exercised their free will by choosing to exit the conversation > (ok... THAT was bad faith also! ) > > FWIW, the *only* thing I have to offer in opposition to the > monistic/deterministic/no-free-will view is my own "experience" which is > *at best* proof (to me) by example... it is not hard for me to grant that > other "beings like me" have the same experience of "free will" (and other > *qualia*). > > My mystical/abstraction-oriented/woo self tends to *grow* the scope of > "beings like me" and even without the benefit of various organic alkaloids > (et al) that others here might use to get into that mood? I'm pretty open > to granting AI/ML models something *like* (my) consciousness, and by > *extension* something *like* (my) free will... while *simultaneously* > (read Lewis Carrol's Red Queen character) believing that determinism IS. > > My snarky flipness was maybe a reflection of the inner tension I feel in > this discussion... that I can take either or both sides pretty effectively > and don't find the arguments of one extrema very compelling to my other > extrema (and vice-versa). The epitome of ambi-valence? > > Maybe there is useful meta-argument which helps resolve that? Maybe > everyone else is able to get a good grip on one extrema or the other and > recognize the opposite one acutely absurd? > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> <[email protected]> *On > Behalf Of *steve smith > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 10, 2025 2:24 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Free will—ghost in the machine or just clever > wiring? > > > > > > On 6/10/25 9:44 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Consider a robot with sensors roughly comparable to humans. > > The robot has access to all the energy it wants. It has a large memory > and generous computing resources. It has executive processes with onboard > state-of-the-art LLMs to access vast information and can run a wide variety > of appropriate programs to plan its next actions. It can use the LLMs to > write new programs. It can tune or fine-tune the LLMs constantly from new > data. It remembers its actions and their consequences. It has video and > audio recordings of every moment. It has time series data of its sensors > since it was activated. Because of its general self-tuning ability, any > guidance from its authors (like for the LLM) can be overridden. It has > americium-241 onboard hardware random number generator that drives its LLM > sampling and any other stochastic algorithm. > > > > Does this robot have free will? Why or why not? > > Probably not unless it's brain is *positronic*. > > For a *proof by anecdote*, read the corpus of Asimov's work. ;/ > > Then go release an Orca into the wild and holler "Free Willy" at the top > of your lungs. If you survive being arrested and convicted for your > declaration of putative "public exposure", then note that the entire global > population are taking up the practice of head-butting sailboats.... free > will much? > > The perils of Free Will(y)? > > > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... > --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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