I don’t know. I expect you are seeing all the same things I see, but to me that part of the video sounds like as close as Sarah is going to get to scathing sarcasm. Calvinist “dignity of their own choices”. Wie man sich bettet, so liegt man, as my landlady used to say.
Close to your last paragraph, the failure isn’t a “cognitive” one; it is a moral one. Precisely the fact that they aren’t ignorant is what gives this the feel of reality to me. I have been hearing for years about how “farmers are smart”, and I believe that, in the practical sense that they occupy a competitive profession, and we see the ones that survive. Here “smart” often means “canny”, but that counts too. So the position of these bastards was just the one we have seen so many times: I’m on the inside, and I think I can be part of a takeover that will give me something; what it does to somebody else, or now broken and dysfunctional a system it is part of couldn’t concern me less. Much like the people interviewed in the segment that I think you circulated on the jet-powered data centers in depopulated rural areas. Sit there in a chair on oxygen and say “I don’t mind that they are doing this; I think they should have all those rights. I just don’t like that they are doing it here.” If there was a cognitive failure in that strategy, it was not realizing that they were _immediately_ the next expendables, because there were no options for a legal election that would keep trump in office, so their “contribution” as voters was irrelevant. I guess that’s being less imaginative. Sitting here far away in my armchair, it hadn’t occurred to me, which is why I found Sarah’s small posting helpful. Maybe if I were in that way of life, it would have got better attention from me, and I would have played out the game that few moves further ahead. Don’t know. More likely I am just not that imaginative, and I wouldn’t have survived long enough to be one of those guys by now anyway. But, on the other hand of what I just wrote, to agree with much of what you say below, I think I like the mechanistic frame Marcus gives, which is beyond moral judgment. There is a system set up, and those are the rules by which it operates. The ones we see in the system are the ones who used those rules effectively for their own survival. The ones who didn’t like it didn’t reform the profession; they sought out other professions that didn’t use the same rules. I do think the latter thing is a helpful reframing. The society is very heavily made of quite cynical decision-makers. These farmers are examples, but for sure they are not alone, or even particularly special. So we’re back to the question from 250 years ago: what institutional strategy — presumably taking into account the co-dependent nature of institutional function and human development — would keep people, made up this way, from reliably going off the cliff. Eric > On Oct 9, 2025, at 10:01, glen <[email protected]> wrote: > > While I appreciated the video, my old saw about the privilege of those of us > with more "compute" power than others arose again. Sarah wraps up with the > ethic "dignity of their choice". This argument came up again at the pub with > a very liberal [⛧] friend. I think the essence of his claim is that *their* > filter bubbles and echo chambers limit *their* ability to even register that > they're missing information that would inform their decisions. > > If I believed that were true, then I'd lob that at Sarah's argument. It's > akin to viewing addiction either as a disease or a moral failure (where those > "grown adults with a good amount of wealth" are classed with the latter). > > But I don't believe it. Because concrete/actual things can only be completely > circumscribed by infinite descriptions, *nobody* "understands the choices > they are making". If you think you do understand the choice you're making, > you're delusional. So the categorization isn't disease-vs-failure, > ignorant-vs-informed, or [un]intelligent. > > The distinction is imaginative-vs-unimaginative. Those of us who know we are > always uninformed keep our imaginations exercised. We *anastomose* the space > of possibilities whenever and wherever we can. And it's that active > imagination that allows us to be just enough more resilient than our less > imaginative siblings. Further, ethically, those of us with fertile > imaginations have a duty to exercise the imaginations of our less imaginative > friends. It seems Sarah tried; and she seems to feel like she fell short. > That happens a lot. And it sucks. Kudos for trying. But the reaction to the > failure isn't to bail and leave the unimaginative to their Just Desserts - > like some billionaire's cowardly retreat to Galt's Gulch. A better answer is > to discover and work on the causes (as opposed to the symptoms) of the dearth > of imaginative power. > > > [⛧] Not left, liberal, but with a good dose of recognition for collective > action, despite his individualism. > > On 10/8/25 11:01 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> I grew up in the Willamette Valley in Oregon, very productive farming >> country (in addition to forestry). >> This describes the farmers I knew – including cousins and uncles. >> Millionaires on paper, yes. The desire for near slave labor, yes. The >> older ones, angry and racist too. >> I’ve never been sympathetic to farmers just because they are farmers. >> At least big agribusiness has some form of corporate rules and supervision. >> The younger relatives from these farming families pivoted, as intelligent >> people do, to other businesses that made sense at modest scale. >> *From:*Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Santafe >> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 8, 2025 10:17 AM >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] non-sycophancy >> It’s not all bad. >> Sometimes, over the fog of nonsense that crowds most of the broadcast >> channels, there are explainers who know what they are talking about and make >> useful observations. >> I think I mentioned Sarah Taber some years ago as someone who comes >> well-reputed. I don’t try to follow her (or anybody else) regularly, but >> this popped up on my feed, and sounds realistic: >> Why Farmers Voted For Trump <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=badGHJLDpP8> >> youtube.com <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=badGHJLDpP8> >> For me, one useful little bit of clarity on who’s out there, and how they >> are making their choices. >> Eric >> On Oct 7, 2025, at 16:28, glen <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> I can't get the phrase "tone deaf" out of my head: >> AmEx "There's nothing like platinum" >> https://youtu.be/KjYyG4FgmPQ?si=XukUoeky00YT_cs5 >> <https://youtu.be/KjYyG4FgmPQ?si=XukUoeky00YT_cs5> >> Battlefield 6 Trailer >> https://youtu.be/LqWVp3p-FPk?si=VCbhrJ1xdZBRl3ba >> <https://youtu.be/LqWVp3p-FPk?si=VCbhrJ1xdZBRl3ba> >> Andrew Tate Car Collection >> https://youtu.be/DDSlF3iI2-s?si=pGAzZJfUCjbXiTD7 >> <https://youtu.be/DDSlF3iI2-s?si=pGAzZJfUCjbXiTD7> >> Maybe it's just me. But these things all seem wildly outside the >> zeitgeist. And that's in spite of my disgust, registered here, with people >> like Sabine Hossenfelder for her blatant shift to the grift or Lex Fridman's >> self-aggrandizing sycophancy >> (https://youtu.be/Z1Ua1hVRtdE?si=e5-SJeSPI11svpqV >> <https://youtu.be/Z1Ua1hVRtdE?si=e5-SJeSPI11svpqV>). >> But I guess it's an obvious next step after the hustle culture we've >> forced ourselves into. Success is measured by your accumulation of status >> symbols, shame be damned. There are some glimmers, though. E.g. >> ICE List >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ficelist.is%2f&c=E,1,QANFi6FQr9QcCSo11t5g_ffDhED7dVTWyJDjJB0ZjDcRFXHLSrNfrtF2jC6SpBxMoZnTdB6u9EWa3eHzFyqIpKFOrshXRcXWkYoD5-ZTdxWa&typo=1 >> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ficelist.is%2f&c=E,1,QANFi6FQr9QcCSo11t5g_ffDhED7dVTWyJDjJB0ZjDcRFXHLSrNfrtF2jC6SpBxMoZnTdB6u9EWa3eHzFyqIpKFOrshXRcXWkYoD5-ZTdxWa&typo=1> >> The Reckoning >> https://www.youtube.com/@PFthereckoning >> <https://www.youtube.com/@PFthereckoning> >> DDoSecrets >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fddosecrets.com%2f&c=E,1,pfIZjkK9sn_mYQUuM8ZrBmRVVRRIfxs7KJTHf0YPsAbLNbkHalceJ5qUElLk6XQ-6JA2wUOVMQbrnpqT6mKqr4hMoQVSBTHgnY3DeC0HPg4,&typo=1 >> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fddosecrets.com%2f&c=E,1,pfIZjkK9sn_mYQUuM8ZrBmRVVRRIfxs7KJTHf0YPsAbLNbkHalceJ5qUElLk6XQ-6JA2wUOVMQbrnpqT6mKqr4hMoQVSBTHgnY3DeC0HPg4,&typo=1> >> The purpose, though, is not to decrement the status but to hone in on >> whatever "accountability" might mean now. How can we, each of us, understand >> what it means? >> On 10/7/25 12:27 PM, Santafe wrote: >> Yeah. Nice. >> I just got back in the country a few days ago, and got to experience >> the White-Nationalist ICE recruiting ads that I gather started fairly >> recently. Like recruiting ads for war criminals, or those who hope for the >> chance to be. I guess they are being run everywhere, as a quick google >> search shows local news reports from a bunch of cities in many states. >> The impressive thing is how belligerently, flamboyantly trashy it all >> is. It's like, anything anybody ever considered low, degraded, or depraved, >> they scent-roll in, just to binge on their ressentiment. If I were trying >> to think of ways to mock somebody for being stupid and ugly, I would never >> have the imagination to put together the scripts they use. >> It almost feels superfluous to spend time thinking about how to deal >> with the people in various offices, when they are ballasted by a sector of >> the public that thinks this is what they have wanted for so long and can >> finally have. Unless one could figure out how to rehabilitate that disease >> to any kind of state of health, it’s very hard to see what, short of a heavy >> collapse that just clobbers the whole country, will thump them hard enough >> to push them back into whatever corner they came bursting out of, and let >> the rest of the public get coordinated enough to re-establish some agency >> over how the country operates. Not that the “rest of the public” knows >> what to do; the status quo ante was the python squeeze that got us into this >> whole mess, and we can’t be aspiring to go back to that. But something >> short of the whole country’s pouring gasoline on itself and setting itself >> on fire would be nice. >> I have thought, too, that americans are going to get to experience >> something that many of my Russian friends have known most or all their >> lives: how do you go about trying to be a good and decent person, in a >> country with a uniformly bad government (corrupt, cynical, and murderous >> with no mitigating benevolences toward anybody) that you don’t see work for >> yourself to change? >> Eric >> On Oct 7, 2025, at 14:48, glen <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fweval.org%2fanalysis%2fsycophancy-probe%2fad51e9a522f01e98%2f2025-09-04T17-50-49-741Z&c=E,1,RyTKGFwr1wjARn9k5vTd-WC-XLWBsqDCtuIl7B4-zdfEGde94UyemTKPbutU21Znk5UHrObUvCB4noUNqNJfjZgpEjXEqVt8KlXtEncB9g,,&typo=1 >> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fweval.org%2fanalysis%2fsycophancy-probe%2fad51e9a522f01e98%2f2025-09-04T17-50-49-741Z&c=E,1,RyTKGFwr1wjARn9k5vTd-WC-XLWBsqDCtuIl7B4-zdfEGde94UyemTKPbutU21Znk5UHrObUvCB4noUNqNJfjZgpEjXEqVt8KlXtEncB9g,,&typo=1> >> If only we could find the political will to amend the >> Constitution with something like this. Or at least add it to Senate advice >> and consent. > > > -- > ¡sıɹƎ ןıɐH ⊥ ɐןןǝdoɹ ǝ uǝןƃ > ὅτε oi μὲν ἄλλοι κύνες τοὺς ἐχϑροὺς δάκνουσιν, ἐγὰ δὲ τοὺς φίλους, ἵνα σώσω. > > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... > --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,2yVmmCgfjsX5z3ErVog_KIqffk2LrASfVIPUUHAuKR6jSexXxIUaR5y0AH-efc4jwyngnzbjjeAsY-IgZBHgtbQ4R01jdGsWz92WygQ_cF8,&typo=1 > to (un)subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,YCegHJPmNiQB6nZMqrHcI2dYzvepHZdX53IFegAtd2kvJSiZe1IOM304rGIGilXH1CEN9EZwLUyqDEIXwIUCmaPwpar6ykKOIC_DMs0XBGdLVn71jg1y&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,140CzSoTQXmD63dltX2zdbUf2JGDNczE_IUA83L2ApNZUZ8bvRASrTPHcYaLu2GRRF8_FEWSme2HSbZFBHrKXlm4Ok4qvIRb4LdxAMjyxM1jSi7U7EGxP9WX&typo=1 > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,fBPMTuQcfjHkgrBndKyWT8zwkTxAXwl3OsTD_GMA768lcvgXYZm8Wr_tPrtpk0FRN7pSROCpjxkD76Wj6zBxFvOqQxgF9kqg7UAmHASLpxlHXJdCouw,&typo=1 > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. 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