Ok, guys. I have been thoroughly BSD'ed. Metaphorical thought plays no role in science. Bad metaphors have played no role in our current terrible misunderstandings concerning the role of science. Successive experiences are not understood in terms of previous ones. No good can come of examining perception as a series of abductive inferences. I submit to your authority. I am so glad to have been purged of all my sins.
Boy, I am glad that's over. Nick On Wed, Mar 18, 2026 at 6:53 PM Santafe <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Mar 17, 2026, at 17:36, Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> wrote: > > Correct me if I'm wrong. "Entanglement" is a relationship between two > electrons such that if one changes (e.g. spin) then the other one changes. > > > I hear it rendered that way, so I would say you are faithful to how people > talk. > > On the other hand, I would never say that, and I never actually liked the > term (Entanglement) (will answer Nick maybe in a bit on that, as he > provides a good invitation to a rant). > > I would say that we know some things about many-electron states, and one > of those things is that lots of them are not products of single-electron > states. If you take a many-electron state, and do various projections of > it (the particle I will measure in a box over here on the left, or the > particle I will measure in a box over here on the right), then there are > outcomes for those pairs of projections that one could name in English, but > that in fact never occur for projections from actual multi-electron states, > because of the configurations that are ever, or are not ever, found in > those state spaces. > > Probably excessively pedantic. But like garlic for Vampires, it can be > helpful when the metaphor monists come out at night. > > Eric > > > > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 5:18 PM glen <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Were you to write something like: "... scientists, when they use such >> rich catachreses as 'entanglement', fail to take responsibility for >> consequences of such use", I would not object. That word, unlike metaphor, >> has a fairly concrete meaning, something like "fills lexical gaps in >> scientific terminology, providing names and concepts where none previously >> existed". >> >> Or, were you to write something like: "... scientists, when they use such >> rich didactic metaphors as 'entanglement', fail to take responsibility for >> consequences of such use", that would be OK too. The 'didactic' qualifier >> helps the reader *understand* whatever the hell you might mean. >> >> I don't actually care that much what the first person who used a word >> meant by that word. Etymology and usage history are interesting and can >> sometimes hint at the word's normative meaning. But what matters much much >> more is what the current author(s) mean when they use the word. >> >> And, again, if everything's a metaphor, then the word 'metaphor' is >> useless... like saying everything is a thing. It feels like the Bad kind of >> "sophistry" to use a phrase like "the metaphor (metaphor)". It not only >> wastes everyone's time; it also gives me The Ick: >> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20ick It's difficult >> to steel man something when that thing grosses you out. >> >> >> On 3/17/26 12:31 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >> > Cmon, Glen, where is the Steelman of Yore? >> > >> > To apply the metaphor (metaphor) to every utterance is no more >> "corrupt" than to mathematize every proposition. It becomes corrupt only >> when it is not pursued honesty. "Entanglement" is a metaphor. It directs >> the mind. "Natural selection" is a metaphor. It also directs the mind. >> > >> > My worry is that scientists, when they use such rich metaphors as >> entanglement fail to take responsibility for the consequences of such use. >> Let's assume that the person who first used the metaphor, entanglement, >> meant something by it. We can formalize the analysis of metaphors just as >> we can mathematicize any proposition. And in that formalization, we can >> sort out the direction, and misdirection in the metaphor. What did they >> intend when they used the metaphor entanglement? What did they NOT >> intend? And when the disclaimers have been completed, is there anything >> left of the metaphor. If not, then, perhaps,*/scientists should stop using >> the metaphor/*. In the same way that we have stopped calling porpoises >> "fish". >> > >> > I don't know enough to even speculate what role "entanglement" as a >> metaphor has played in the development of quantum physics. But I claim to >> know enough about human behavior to assert that it has played some role, >> and that physicists run some risks if they altogether disclaim it. >> > >> > What might we gain, SteelMan, from exploring human thought as movement >> from metaphor to metaphor, each new experience being understood as a >> version of some previous one? My love is like a red,red rose, delicate, >> delighting, fragrant. But OH! the thorns. Did I mean the thorns. Was >> there ever a rose that did not have thorns? Metaphors are like that. >> > >> > When you say that we metaphorists are liars, what are the experiences >> of being lied to that you bring to bear. When we analyze metaphors (I >> assert), it's always best to be as particular as possible. Describe to me >> a particular jarring instance of being lied to. Now project that >> experience onto the experience of being metaphored to. What are the >> surplus meanings of applying the metaphor; which of those surplus meanings >> are disclaimed; once these disclaimers have been noted, does the metaphor >> retain any heuristic value. >> > >> > I have to say, I don't like being called a liar. But -- as the saying >> goes -- "if the foo shits", I guess I have to wear it. So, what experience >> do you imagine when you imagine being lied to? What aspects of that >> experience do you intend when you call metaphorists liars? What aspect do >> you disclaim? What is the heuristic value of the metaphor, once the >> disclaimers have been made. >> > >> > By the way, just as an interpersonal matter, if you call me a sinner, >> it doesn't help that you immediately call yourself a sinner. Any contempt >> you feel for yourself, does nothing to salve the contempt you feel for me. >> In fact it makes it worse. I have to bear the contempt of an admitted >> /sinner!/ >> > >> > But I love you anyway. I wouldn't engage you if I didnt. >> > >> > Nick >> >> >> -- >> ¡sıɹƎ ןıɐH ⊥ ɐןןǝdoɹ ǝ uǝןƃ >> ὅτε oi μὲν ἄλλοι κύνες τοὺς ἐχϑροὺς δάκνουσιν, ἐγὰ δὲ τοὺς φίλους, ἵνα >> σώσω. >> >> >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,Redle3Cv7NYhi8lLYfou9IHMleFo9S1V7btvRNeOokKVdGVSecyoy6Ksaxk1cSR-y8HeP3ldt4jQSWek4G105PmegJ148-glqrWzgR_JMy4B&typo=1> >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,FVNUU02015xFEup-pGPisFocCsa0L4WeGKmTJWJIyEoX9h6r4ki833dUMbNM0IlpX4_ZD1sTeNIAX1ic0rkxakU4t_z2KcgsnScOpZIhhxk,&typo=1> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,jp_EOogupOvYWDPeXQ8wN555A7KE-YxXJJjJKeMYtSp2o33vpoN9LIhTz02BJetlBEkstSmoZc901k9KD6Dp6O2xDBQDALAsB_SBDDaKUirqbPJtC0Y,&typo=1> >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,-M1jI0ZNDjydKrM2VXlKcWpaVKTjn9AhwgchZaxTFh1F0A7NDA3r7F3S-0KA-9u4dCH-fANlcOjGK8Wi0i5d7hCE9zwERdQ_PBg4ixr0wX3-6w,,&typo=1> >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,I92qPioa1pQqNHUbCJ1pPOqSIqzoXRfovSJdbJQ5OJPxmVHHPEhc6ZwVRaGZuyEOnCjg7TqDNZuksJYWxkXFLt5FpEzzbl0xZKj_K-VfMBQWpXw,&typo=1 > to (un)subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,Gryi8PgZiOv7RwE2r4Wyw_uc3OJF2-SWc0UvmhLs4pyNGLukFcuYgzE6Yl6JDOuoQ3dYa7Zf5E4ty0EG_9AxJiqz-LDf0PrjC71ksuurPQ,,&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,_MpBbfmn7Fm5NpovC-r1HXDXEtYBPnIIbmHc1DbkmI4N16LhyblYsXQI0STkkYOXG-JG6x95leNpiDd_YYnOEcG8sQnZETWS5h00s-SAvA,,&typo=1 > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,35E3Mpl0ZPe95YSDmKNuN8lMEMe3s820XEuhJILm3_GEnkfGH_DTV9EAMclyHO9XhRLnXaoB4ENE5ZWDG-6JPWPY-YSZZLSjNPJFleLqqQ0kl_E,&typo=1 > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -- Nicholas S. 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