I am not fighting. I am just not helping as much as I should. I just need to die and get out of your way. N
On Mon, Mar 23, 2026 at 8:34 AM Eric Charles <[email protected]> wrote: > Nick, > In fairness to them, you want to act like you are some sort of authority > on the subject, having decades ago published a book on how metaphors work > and their role in scientific inquiry..... alas... you did not publish that > book decades ago, and still at least lightly fighting my efforts to do so > on your behalf 😅🤷 > > Best, > Eric > > <[email protected]> > > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2026 at 11:40 PM Nicholas Thompson < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Ok, guys. I have been thoroughly BSD'ed. Metaphorical thought plays no >> role in science. Bad metaphors have played no role in our current terrible >> misunderstandings concerning the role of science. Successive experiences >> are not understood in terms of previous ones. No good can come of >> examining perception as a series of abductive inferences. I submit to your >> authority. I am so glad to have been purged of all my sins. >> >> Boy, I am glad that's over. >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 18, 2026 at 6:53 PM Santafe <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> On Mar 17, 2026, at 17:36, Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Correct me if I'm wrong. "Entanglement" is a relationship between two >>> electrons such that if one changes (e.g. spin) then the other one changes. >>> >>> >>> I hear it rendered that way, so I would say you are faithful to how >>> people talk. >>> >>> On the other hand, I would never say that, and I never actually liked >>> the term (Entanglement) (will answer Nick maybe in a bit on that, as he >>> provides a good invitation to a rant). >>> >>> I would say that we know some things about many-electron states, and one >>> of those things is that lots of them are not products of single-electron >>> states. If you take a many-electron state, and do various projections of >>> it (the particle I will measure in a box over here on the left, or the >>> particle I will measure in a box over here on the right), then there are >>> outcomes for those pairs of projections that one could name in English, but >>> that in fact never occur for projections from actual multi-electron states, >>> because of the configurations that are ever, or are not ever, found in >>> those state spaces. >>> >>> Probably excessively pedantic. But like garlic for Vampires, it can be >>> helpful when the metaphor monists come out at night. >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> Frank C. Wimberly >>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >>> >>> 505 670-9918 >>> Santa Fe, NM >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 5:18 PM glen <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Were you to write something like: "... scientists, when they use such >>>> rich catachreses as 'entanglement', fail to take responsibility for >>>> consequences of such use", I would not object. That word, unlike metaphor, >>>> has a fairly concrete meaning, something like "fills lexical gaps in >>>> scientific terminology, providing names and concepts where none previously >>>> existed". >>>> >>>> Or, were you to write something like: "... scientists, when they use >>>> such rich didactic metaphors as 'entanglement', fail to take responsibility >>>> for consequences of such use", that would be OK too. The 'didactic' >>>> qualifier helps the reader *understand* whatever the hell you might mean. >>>> >>>> I don't actually care that much what the first person who used a word >>>> meant by that word. Etymology and usage history are interesting and can >>>> sometimes hint at the word's normative meaning. But what matters much much >>>> more is what the current author(s) mean when they use the word. >>>> >>>> And, again, if everything's a metaphor, then the word 'metaphor' is >>>> useless... like saying everything is a thing. It feels like the Bad kind of >>>> "sophistry" to use a phrase like "the metaphor (metaphor)". It not only >>>> wastes everyone's time; it also gives me The Ick: >>>> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20ick It's >>>> difficult to steel man something when that thing grosses you out. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/17/26 12:31 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >>>> > Cmon, Glen, where is the Steelman of Yore? >>>> > >>>> > To apply the metaphor (metaphor) to every utterance is no more >>>> "corrupt" than to mathematize every proposition. It becomes corrupt only >>>> when it is not pursued honesty. "Entanglement" is a metaphor. It directs >>>> the mind. "Natural selection" is a metaphor. It also directs the mind. >>>> > >>>> > My worry is that scientists, when they use such rich metaphors as >>>> entanglement fail to take responsibility for the consequences of such use. >>>> Let's assume that the person who first used the metaphor, entanglement, >>>> meant something by it. We can formalize the analysis of metaphors just as >>>> we can mathematicize any proposition. And in that formalization, we can >>>> sort out the direction, and misdirection in the metaphor. What did they >>>> intend when they used the metaphor entanglement? What did they NOT >>>> intend? And when the disclaimers have been completed, is there anything >>>> left of the metaphor. If not, then, perhaps,*/scientists should stop using >>>> the metaphor/*. In the same way that we have stopped calling porpoises >>>> "fish". >>>> > >>>> > I don't know enough to even speculate what role "entanglement" as a >>>> metaphor has played in the development of quantum physics. But I claim to >>>> know enough about human behavior to assert that it has played some role, >>>> and that physicists run some risks if they altogether disclaim it. >>>> > >>>> > What might we gain, SteelMan, from exploring human thought as >>>> movement from metaphor to metaphor, each new experience being understood as >>>> a version of some previous one? My love is like a red,red rose, delicate, >>>> delighting, fragrant. But OH! the thorns. Did I mean the thorns. Was >>>> there ever a rose that did not have thorns? Metaphors are like that. >>>> > >>>> > When you say that we metaphorists are liars, what are the experiences >>>> of being lied to that you bring to bear. When we analyze metaphors (I >>>> assert), it's always best to be as particular as possible. Describe to me >>>> a particular jarring instance of being lied to. Now project that >>>> experience onto the experience of being metaphored to. What are the >>>> surplus meanings of applying the metaphor; which of those surplus meanings >>>> are disclaimed; once these disclaimers have been noted, does the metaphor >>>> retain any heuristic value. >>>> > >>>> > I have to say, I don't like being called a liar. But -- as the >>>> saying goes -- "if the foo shits", I guess I have to wear it. So, what >>>> experience do you imagine when you imagine being lied to? What aspects of >>>> that experience do you intend when you call metaphorists liars? What aspect >>>> do you disclaim? What is the heuristic value of the metaphor, once the >>>> disclaimers have been made. >>>> > >>>> > By the way, just as an interpersonal matter, if you call me a sinner, >>>> it doesn't help that you immediately call yourself a sinner. Any contempt >>>> you feel for yourself, does nothing to salve the contempt you feel for me. >>>> In fact it makes it worse. I have to bear the contempt of an admitted >>>> /sinner!/ >>>> > >>>> > But I love you anyway. I wouldn't engage you if I didnt. >>>> > >>>> > Nick >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ¡sıɹƎ ןıɐH ⊥ ɐןןǝdoɹ ǝ uǝןƃ >>>> ὅτε oi μὲν ἄλλοι κύνες τοὺς ἐχϑροὺς δάκνουσιν, ἐγὰ δὲ τοὺς φίλους, ἵνα >>>> σώσω. >>>> >>>> >>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. >>>> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,Redle3Cv7NYhi8lLYfou9IHMleFo9S1V7btvRNeOokKVdGVSecyoy6Ksaxk1cSR-y8HeP3ldt4jQSWek4G105PmegJ148-glqrWzgR_JMy4B&typo=1> >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,FVNUU02015xFEup-pGPisFocCsa0L4WeGKmTJWJIyEoX9h6r4ki833dUMbNM0IlpX4_ZD1sTeNIAX1ic0rkxakU4t_z2KcgsnScOpZIhhxk,&typo=1> >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,jp_EOogupOvYWDPeXQ8wN555A7KE-YxXJJjJKeMYtSp2o33vpoN9LIhTz02BJetlBEkstSmoZc901k9KD6Dp6O2xDBQDALAsB_SBDDaKUirqbPJtC0Y,&typo=1> >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,-M1jI0ZNDjydKrM2VXlKcWpaVKTjn9AhwgchZaxTFh1F0A7NDA3r7F3S-0KA-9u4dCH-fANlcOjGK8Wi0i5d7hCE9zwERdQ_PBg4ixr0wX3-6w,,&typo=1> >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. >>> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,I92qPioa1pQqNHUbCJ1pPOqSIqzoXRfovSJdbJQ5OJPxmVHHPEhc6ZwVRaGZuyEOnCjg7TqDNZuksJYWxkXFLt5FpEzzbl0xZKj_K-VfMBQWpXw,&typo=1 >>> to (un)subscribe >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,Gryi8PgZiOv7RwE2r4Wyw_uc3OJF2-SWc0UvmhLs4pyNGLukFcuYgzE6Yl6JDOuoQ3dYa7Zf5E4ty0EG_9AxJiqz-LDf0PrjC71ksuurPQ,,&typo=1 >>> FRIAM-COMIC >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,_MpBbfmn7Fm5NpovC-r1HXDXEtYBPnIIbmHc1DbkmI4N16LhyblYsXQI0STkkYOXG-JG6x95leNpiDd_YYnOEcG8sQnZETWS5h00s-SAvA,,&typo=1 >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,35E3Mpl0ZPe95YSDmKNuN8lMEMe3s820XEuhJILm3_GEnkfGH_DTV9EAMclyHO9XhRLnXaoB4ENE5ZWDG-6JPWPY-YSZZLSjNPJFleLqqQ0kl_E,&typo=1 >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >>> >>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. >>> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >> Clark University >> [email protected] >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson >> https://substack.com/@monist >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -- Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology Clark University [email protected] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson https://substack.com/@monist
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