DES, EPC, FW So far as I understand, the argument flowing from Fisher makes no claims about the kind of trait that produces reproductive success other than that it is the kind that produces reproductive success. FW, if that's not a tautology, it's a pretty tight circle. DES, if you have answered that basic point in your longer critique, please forgive me. I don't think that you should see the fact that you write so long as a shame, but as a kind of generosity with your time. I am grateful for it. However, it does mean that it takes me a while to catch up. I will try to do that in the next few days.
NST On Mon, Mar 30, 2026 at 1:04 PM Eric Charles <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes, but now that Erica's statement does not indicate *why* a trait would > affect reproductive success. > > Also, there are implied generalities: > > *some* Traits are *sometimes* predictive of reproductive success, and > reproductive success is *sometimes* the amplifier or attenuator of trait > frequencies. > > (I plan to write more later... in cell phone now) > > Best, > Eric > > <[email protected]> > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2026, 1:22 PM Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Not a tautology. >> >> --- >> Frank C. Wimberly >> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> >> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> >> >> 505 670-9918 >> Santa Fe, NM >> >> On Mon, Mar 30, 2026, 6:29 AM Santafe <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Let me summarize my last horrible send in a line: >>> >>> "Traits are predictive of reproductive success, and reproductive success >>> is the amplifier or attenuator of trait frequencies." >>> >>> I don’t see any argument that the above sentence is tautological. And I >>> don’t hear anybody serious making any other claim than the above sentence. >>> >>> My apologies to you all for thisAM…. >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2026, at 6:53, Santafe <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> I was on the point of trying to answer Nick a few days ago, while also >>> acknowledging that since I haven’t had time to read his paper, I should >>> keep it short. >>> >>> It is helpful that EricC has posted in the meantime, because I often >>> believe I can understand what he means by something, whereas with Nick I >>> often read things that seem kinda familiar, but then I find some sentence >>> that Nick writes following a “therefore”, and I am baffled by what logic he >>> thinks that follows from, making me realize I probably didn’t understand >>> what he “actually meant” by the earlier sentences either. >>> >>> But I will try a short in-line here, with EricC’s version, which is what >>> I was guessing Nick might have meant a few days ago when he said: >>> >>> This literature you cite often fails to make a distinction between >>> evolution as a theory and the theory that explains evolution. Evolution as >>> a theory holds that organisms have descended through the ages they have >>> become modified to the circumstances of their existence. It is a thesis >>> about the causes of descent with modification. Natural selection is a >>> theory offered in explanation of that pattern of descent. The literature >>> you describe has often fused these two metaphors into one and therefore is >>> fundamentally unfalsifiable as a theory that explains evolution. >>> >>> >>> Here I was completely mystified what argument Nick understood himself to >>> be making. Particularly referring to “the literature I cite”, since I sent >>> him George Price’s The Nature of Selection, which (in the actual print of >>> the article) says nothing of the kind. >>> >>> Put aside that I couldn’t track what the “two” were, or in what sense >>> either was a “metaphor”, other than that Nick labels them (and all other >>> words; man with a hammer) as such. >>> >>> Anyway, moving on as promised: >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2026, at 0:41, Eric Charles <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I think this (EricS's reply) speaks to the "formalism" issue, and the >>> value of the "flavor text". >>> >>> One of the big problems in evolutionary theory over the last >>> century came from the desire for a very particular type of formalism, in >>> which terms are all inter-defined, and as such, statements made within the >>> system can't be "wrong" in an empirical sense. The classic example (so Nick >>> and I assert in the incipient book) is the equation [image: >>> {\displaystyle s=1-W}] where s stands for "selection" and W is >>> "fitness". This has been in biology textbooks of a certain sort for well >>> over half a century, and leads to Dawkins's "Selfish Gene" talk, among >>> other things. It's hard to criticize on the surface, but, unfortunately, >>> once you do that, you cannot usefully study the relationship between >>> fitness and selection, because that-they-are-related becomes a truism! >>> >>> >>> I _would_ have asked Nick: "What do you mean: is it that the sentence >>> `adaptedness is an outcome of natural selection' is a tautology, amounting >>> to nothing more than `fit are the fit'?” I was guessing that might have >>> been Nick’s meaning, and it sounds like EricC’s meaning here. >>> >>> I will take your word for the presence of bad writing and nonsense in >>> evolutionary textbooks a century ago (probably today, too; the ability of >>> many scientists to render coherent logic in ordinary English is often not >>> something to be proud of). And I think I can remember somebody with a >>> biology degree (so journals are required to publish him), who writes >>> something like this (was it Pigliucci? If not, I apologize to him for >>> bringing in his name.) >>> >>> But if that is the complaint, it seems to me that that ship had sailed >>> already with Fisher, though he was so cryptic and imperious in his writing >>> and his personal style, that it had to wait 40 years for George Price to >>> explain to the rest of the community what Fisher was saying (and per Glen, >>> much more importantly, _doing_). Steve Frank has written fairly well on >>> this; or at least, that is where I got it. (I don’t know which of a >>> half-dozen papers might be the cleanest source to recommend here.) In any >>> case, if people didn’t know it had sailed in 1930 or 1958, they certainly >>> should have known it had sailed by 1972 or 1990 (when Frank found Price’s >>> 1972 manuscript and published it). de facto, most of the working >>> literature that has content already makes use of its having sailed, even if >>> they don’t remark on it, because they use Price Equations as accounting >>> identifies (among other organizing systems). >>> >>> If one is going to assert that there is nothing but tautology in what >>> population geneticists compute, and therefore they don’t ever predict >>> anything — a tautology can’t — then I would say that requires ignoring all >>> the main content of what one is reading in a very large number of papers. >>> There is an entire causal/predictive structure, and it can very much be >>> wrong in its imputations. Often, the sources of being wrong can come from >>> things biologists don’t front as important elements of cause, where I argue >>> they should, so the things that are wrong can also be interesting. >>> >>> What then am I claiming is the non-tautological content, which is there >>> over and over and over in tons of papers, which Fisher gestured at >>> unhelpfully in English, but partly did a very important thing with in math, >>> which Steve Frank acceptably describes, and which Price made didactic? >>> >>> 1. First, obviously, we get rid of horoscope-style and >>> Humpty-Dumpty-style language. We know that “fitness” can’t be doing much >>> work in a causal account if all it means is “I look at them, and they seem >>> to be happy”, or if it is meant to be a synonym for the even worse >>> attributive: “design”. (Remember the important part of the Vampire lore: >>> they have to be invited in!) We have to actually say _what we mean a >>> predictive theory to be predicting_. So the attempt to formalize fitness >>> as “reproductive success, absolute or relative, according to parent type”, >>> is the declaration of the observable to be the anchor for empiricism. If >>> you like, the “instrument” that is to be employed. >>> >>> 1a. Now, declaring an observable can’t in itself be “wrong” in Popper’s >>> sense, because it isn’t a logical conclusion. What it can be, however, is >>> incoherent, and thus a gesture at a definition, which can’t ever be made >>> into an actual definition. This is the important thing that Fisher did >>> correctly and explained horribly: making the point that “fitness” must be >>> formalized as a summary statistic (that’s a technical term, not a >>> metaphor!) of your high-dimensional observable. The question of when you >>> are _even saying anything_ turns on when your summary statistic is >>> coherently definable. Wherever it is coherently defined, it _cannot_ be >>> “falsifiable”, because now we clearly have a definition that is a >>> completely different kind of thing than a putative derived conclusion. >>> >>> 1b. Next, since heredity plays out in diverse ways in different groups, >>> summary statistics defined for one won’t generally be defined for others. >>> Fisher, being a King, in many of the worst senses, and being out to capture >>> territory (negatively spun) and solve prediction problems (positively >>> spun), defined a variety of summary statistics from histories that are >>> sequences of population states connected through reproduction. They aren’t >>> all the same, and they are not all capable of carrying the same “meanings”. >>> (I’ll get to what that word means in a moment.) >>> >>> 1c. For objects that are suitably described as “replicators” (technical >>> term, not metaphor!), there is a fitness summary statistic that can also be >>> assigned as an attribute (just, a marking) of individual organisms. For >>> organisms that reproduce sexually, or via a variety of complex lifecycles, >>> the summary statistics that Fisher defined to carry the label “fitness” >>> _cannot_ be assigned as attributes to any organism, because they are >>> computed from whole-population counts. So quite apart from what you think >>> you gain by “marking” an individual organism with an attribute (the >>> bacterial cells carrying this allele have left 14.32 live daughters per >>> starting cell in 6 generations in this laboratory instantiation of a >>> population dynamic), for these sexual-lifecycle summary statistics, you >>> can’t even do that much. >>> >>> 1d, Just btw (a thing nobody has any reason to care about), this is >>> where it is productive to go after Fisher, and the generations that don’t >>> extend beyond him in their methods. His summary statistics are >>> well-defined, so one can’t deny that. But they are not _all_ the summary >>> statistics one might try, and there are others (also well-defined) that can >>> be constructed, which do a better job of marking organisms and life-stages >>> than Fisher’s fitnesses do, and support all the same Price-like >>> decompositions. That’s the kind of thing I do. >>> >>> 2. So at the end of all the “1” points above, we have an actual >>> observable that we have committed to, and that we intend some “theory” to >>> explain or predict in some way. The whole content of a predictive theory >>> is the assertion that organisms have attributes in the here-and-now >>> (variously termed “traits”), which support prediction of the distributions >>> of our fitness summary statistics as time unfolds. Again, those attributes >>> aren’t vague gestures like “seems to be doing well”; they should be things >>> one can commit to somehow: it is dark or light in color; it has softer or >>> harder shells or teeth or claws; etc. >>> >>> 2a. Geneticists try to capture the idea that traits in the here-and-now >>> are predictive of fitnesses as realized histories unfold, by defining >>> sample estimators for those dependencies in the form of regressions. >>> Again, if a regression is defined, there can’t be anything “true” or >>> “false” about it; it is just a definition. >>> >>> 3. The Evolutionists, for some time, have built up terminology around >>> all this. Samir Okasha’s book uses it (among other things) as a skeleton. >>> I don’t enjoy the way they say it, but if one is trying to follow their >>> arguments, the terms are enough to do that. The summary-statistic >>> definition of the observable is what they call “realized fitness”, and the >>> regression model on traits in the here-and-now is what they call the >>> “propensity interpretation”. Yuck; but don’t shoot the messenger. I >>> probably wouldn’t have coined those terms. >>> >>> 3a. It seems pretty inescapable to me that realized fitness and a >>> regression model on traits cannot be tautologically related, as one >>> requires diachronic observation even to assign, while the other is >>> assignable (for any fixed choice of regression coefficients) from a >>> population state at a single time. (It treats the population composition >>> as a Markov state.) >>> >>> 3b. Note that EricC’s s = 1-W above never entered any of what I said. >>> If a selection coefficient is defined in some way as an algebraic function >>> of offspring numbers, that is just a layer of notation. The existence of >>> both realized values W (convertible to realized values s), and >>> model-predicted expectations for W, derived from model-incorporated >>> coefficients s, means that the algebra isn’t meant to do other than >>> convenience work _within_ either layer, and the causal argument concerns >>> the fitting of models to sample data. If textbook writers render this >>> reality badly, then fine: go after them. But the flu designers who >>> estimate what should go into an annual vaccine don’t deserve to be tarred >>> with that brush. >>> >>> 4. Finally we can get to the point of what they claim to be doing, and >>> in competent papers, are doing: Are their regression models predictive, >>> and are they robust against things that the modeler didn’t notice, but that >>> could have been included? Hashing out that question is the whole content >>> of the scientific literature and program. >>> >>> 5. Where is conflation an actual hazard in the world I live in, >>> what-exactly is being conflated, and how might it get something wrong? >>> (So, we have established falsifiable and in that sense meaningful; now I >>> am talking about false and thus interesting.) Well, people might identify >>> a trait that they think confers a tendency to leave more offspring. They >>> might even be right in their identification. All that is on the >>> “propensity” side. The place they can err is in supposing that, if they >>> have identified a cause for a tendency, then they can be assured of an >>> outcome in the same direction (a wrongful binding of the “propensity” term >>> to the “realized” term), and the only uncertainty will be the scale of the >>> outcome effect. This is an error I think evolutionary biologists often do >>> commit in their informal language, even though the math in any paper >>> wouldn’t let them get away with it, so they don’t do it there. Others, not >>> even evolutionary biologists, but a kind of groupie of the biologists from >>> other domains in science, commit this error of supposition and express it >>> frequently in bar-quality conversation (I have a certain conversation in a >>> NASA working group in mind as I write this.) The slip between the cup of >>> propensity, and the lip of realized outcomes, which biologists don’t >>> account for as fully as I think they should, is illustrated nicely by >>> magnetism: The “tendency” for spins to align in solid-phase Iron is >>> identical at all temperatures. However, when the iron is too hot, the >>> spins don’t macroscopically align “just a little”; rather, they don’t align >>> macroscopically at all. Then, upon cooling just a little below the >>> critical temperature, they do macroscopically align, and the alignment >>> rapidly becomes “a lot” with separation of temperature below the critical >>> value. All this is the lesson about counting that we learned from >>> thermodynamics. And while the things being counted in evolution (completed >>> lifecycles) are different from the things counted in equilibrium thermo >>> (pairs of aligned spins), the counting argument applies equally well. >>> >>> >>> Anyway…. Sorry for so many words. I hope that I have given enough here >>> to explain why I am baffled when I hear modern people claim that >>> “adaptation occurs through natural selection” is “unfalsifiable”. >>> >>> The thing about where Dawkins goes wrong is another story, best told by >>> not quoting his own words, because he is such a rhetorician (even though >>> his earlier work suggests that he is capable of arguing properly). But it >>> branches out of the points above, just on the point of mis-representing >>> summary statistics that cannot be object-attributes, as if they were object >>> attributes, and then, having set up that strawman, arguing that the only >>> recourse is to throw the whole thing out above the level of the gene, and >>> ignore that all the same problems continue to occur for genes, becoming >>> quite serious in the deeper past. All that can totally be sorted out; >>> there are no fatal confusions, and metaphor isn’t tripping up anybody who >>> wants to speak and argue carefully. >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. >>> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -- Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology Clark University [email protected] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson https://substack.com/@monist
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