>-----Original Message----- >From: Jon Kibler [mailto:jon.kib...@aset.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:09 AM >To: Tomas L. Byrnes >Cc: n...@virus-l.demon.co.uk; funsec@linuxbox.org >Subject: Re: [funsec] Rage against spammers and telemarketers > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Tomas L. Byrnes wrote: >> IE: That a Democratic Republic has a better chance of averting >> catastrophe than an Oligarchy. >> >> History tends to prove my point. > > >On the other hand, great oligarchies, such as the Roman Catholic Church, >have >lasted for at least 1,500 years -- and some would argue that its reach >has been >nearly the full 2 millennia of its existence. [TLB:] If you think the system of government's survival is the measure of avoiding catastrophe, then I guess you are right. MY measure of catastrophe is what happens to the people who live under that system of government. The average Roman or Gallo-Roman was far better off than the subjects of the Holy Roman Empire from c 300AD until the Enlightenment, IMO.
>From my viewpoint, the Roman Catholic Church is an excellent example of an oligarchy that CAUSED multiple disasters. The largest, in my mind, was the extended retreat from science and knowledge caused by the church's persecution of scientists, and the attendant plagues, famines, and general hellish living conditions of most Europeans from the fall of Rome until well after the Enlightenment. I'm sure the Aztecs, Toltecs, and the myriad other cultures destroyed in the name of Christ would also have something to say about the Church. There's also that burning of the library @ Alexandria, the burning of thousands at the stake, and the nearly six centuries of war in Europe that resulted from people trying to escape the hammerlock of Rome once the Reformation started. I'm sure Gadi and the Jews in general would have something to say about their treatment by the Roman Catholic Church from the fall of Rome until after WWII (Pope JPII felt badly enough about it that he apologized for it from the main altar of St. Peter's in 2000). A pretty good argument can be made that WWII was, in effect, the last of the wars between the Protestants (UK and USA) and the Catholics (Germany and Italy). Its dress rehearsal was certainly the church versus secularism (Spanish Civil War). In the end, the Catholic church has become a shadow of its former self, precisely because, as is the case with all Oligarchies, it was too inflexible and unable to change to meet new challenges. My point is that free markets of ideas and goods, acted on by free people, are much better at adapting to, and coping with, difficult circumstances; than oligarchies of "Philosopher Princes". I think Plato's "Republic" is the worst meme our society has, as it advances a system of government that, like Communism, completely disregards basic human nature, which inevitably means that the elite who run things become corrupt and despotic, and often incompetent and isolated from reality as well. Just because I may draw different conclusions from History than you do, doesn't mean that I don't know it. I am a product of 14 years (yes, that means 2 years of University as well) of Catholic education. Subsequently, when I was at Northeastern studying engineering and in ROTC, I aced Military history. When my wife and I travel in Italy, I can read all the inscriptions, thanks to 6 years of Latin, to include Roman History. When I lived in France (I speak the language fluently), I made a point of visiting as much of that country's rich trove of museums, castles, and Cathedrals as I could. When I was in the US Army, during the long periods of boredom we face on our way to the moments of pure chaos and terror, I read mostly history, especially biographies of great actors in history. I can highly recommend anything by William Manchester, especially his 2 part Bio of Winston Churchill. WRT Longevity of representative government I'd point out that Rome was a Republic after Athens. I'm sure there are some in the UK who would say that the UK effectively became a parliamentary democracy, albeit with circumscribed rights and a class system, with the Commonwealth (Cromwell) and the limitation of Crown power after the restoration. Certainly, the English have a right to claim that their government has lasted from William the Conqueror until the present day, and they could make claim that it predates that. _______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list.