Don't push your luck. You have declared that you have no interest in the matter because it is 40 years old. And you think I will now spend time on it with you?
-----Original Message----- From: Harry Pollard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 9:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Futurework] with friends & gov't like these, who needs al-Qaeda? Lawry, I don't post propaganda. In fact I probably post more evidence and factual stuff than anyone on the list - often taking great care and much time to deal with actual propaganda, or one line certainties. When I googled and found a site I scanned what was there and it seemed to me that the attack was a genuine error. You haven't answered the three questions that occurred to me after your letter accused me (practically) of being an Israeli propagandist. "What is your agenda?" You said. Ahah! You've found me out. Yet, you are still at it with this latest post. I went back to that site - the "hard-core Israeli" propaganda site. You pushed me a bit too hard. Here's something. " The tragic Israeli attack on the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967, has provoked a great deal of controversy and longstanding anger among surviving members of the crew. Though residual anger and suspicions remain, the incident was the subject of ten U.S. investigations and three more by Israel. In the American case, the full weight of the U.S. government was behind the investigations, which had access to all the relevant information. Though some accusations have been made suggesting the reports sought to hide facts or protect Israel, no credible evidence for these charges has been produced. Moreover, if the investigatory bodies had a bias, it was far more likely to be against Israel. Here is a summary of the investigations and their conclusions:" Then follows a listing with conclusions of the thirteen investigations. None of them involves the Israelis in more than an incompetency. Anyone can see this at the "hard-core Israeli" site: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty .html It's by Dr. Mitchell Bard - obviously by his job a "hard-core" Israeli. Perhaps his listing of investigations is fake, or his results list is dodgy. If I were not relatively disinterested I might investigate further, but I won't. Perhaps, now, you will answer the three questions I posed. These are simply questions that occurred to me. I'm sure you have answers to them. They are not exactly difficult. I'lll repeat them for the third time. Unless the surviving crewmembers are psychic, I do not expect them to have known the intentions of the Israelis other than that they were trying to sink their ship. They can certainly claim that was the objective, because it was. But, otherwise, all they know was they were thoroughly shot up. If Johnson had ordered all American warships to take station 100 miles away from the conflict, I wonder what the Liberty was doing there. Why didn't she leave with all the others? What possible advantage could Israel get from the attack? It achieved nothing, and could only cause trouble with her only ally. Maybe the Israelis were as incompetent - or as stupid - as the Captain of the Liberty seemed to be as he wandered around a war zone while the entire fleet was 100 miles away. (Though, I wouldn't be surprised if he was obeying silly orders.) He was a brave man (and was decorated) but he shouldn't have been there - it seems to me. Anyway, stop pushing at something I'm not particularly interested in, or I'll find the Arabs actually made the attack with Israeli marked planes. Ok! I'm kidding Harry ********************************** Henry George School of Social Science of Los Angeles. Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042 818 352-4141 ********************************** > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Lawrence de Bivort > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 2:26 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [Futurework] with friends & gov't like these, who > needs al-Qaeda? > > Harry, I would ask that next time you don't care about > something that you > refrain from posting propaganda. It gives us the impression > that you do > care, and we assume that therefore you brought some thought > to your posting. > > > Instead, it just makes us waste our time in responding to you. > > It also makes me wonder whether some of your other postings > are similar in > intent and substance. > > I am speaking sharply with you because I think that all this was > below you. > I value your postings and would like to see them continue at a > high level. > > Lawry > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Harry Pollard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 3:27 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [Futurework] with friends & gov't like these, who > needs > al-Qaeda? > > Lawry, > > I didn't " post any old bit of nonsense"? > > I just don't care about it. > > Chris brought up the subject. I googled and got the URL > which I posted and then forgot about it. > > This is what I sent. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > Check out: > > > > http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > This is what stimulated your post telling me all the things > I should into - the books and transcript, and documentary > collections. > > But I am not particularly interested in this 40 year old > event, but if I were I would not listen only to the > pro-Arab input - which I suppose is anti-Israeli by > implication. > > Your remarks come straight out of your pro-Arab stance - > which is all right. I look to your contributions to get the > Arab point of view and am grateful for them. > > You told me that the URL was "hard-core pro-Israeli". So, > Chris is hard core anti-Israeli. > > You are more sensibly anti-Israeli. > > However, I don't expect anything from you both that is > critical of the Arabs. I do expect that you will jump on > anything bad the Israelis do whether confirmed or > speculative. > > Unless the surviving crewmembers are psychic, I do not > expect them to have known the intentions of the Israelis > other than that they were trying to sink their ship. They > can certainly claim that was the objective, because it was. > > If Johnson had ordered all American warships to take > station 100 miles away from the conflict, I wonder what the > Liberty was doing there. Why didn't she leave with all the > others? > > You can answer those two points if you like. I'm sure you > can. > > You ask (with a conspiratorial implication) "What is you > agenda, Harry?" > > My agenda is not to bother with this thing any more. I am > simply disinterested. > > Tell me about those two points - I'm sure you have buckets > of stuff about them to deal with my mild curiosity.. > > Harry > > ********************************** > Henry George School of Social Science > of Los Angeles. > Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042 > 818 352-4141 > ********************************** > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:futurework- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lawrence de > Bivort > > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 10:14 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] with friends & gov't like > these, who needs > > al-Qaeda? > > > > "just reading the first one that came up" is a terrible > way to do research, > > Harry. Surely you know this. And then not noticing the > nature of the > > site > > and assessing the likelihood that it is objective > is...not research at all, > > but something else. Frankly, I cannot belief that you > were simply > > remiss in > > doing so. > > > > The account of the crew is vital as by describing > accurately the form of > > the > > attack (timelines, condition of the boat, communications, > identification > > signs, attack sequences, etc) you can tell al lot about > the actions of the > > attackers, and thus about their goals, and thus their > motives. But you > > must > > know this Harry. What is your real agenda here? > > > > Then you follow up with two odd challenges, which seem > simply to > > mimic the > > disinformation contained on the website you initially > cut-and-pasted > > from. > > There was no shelling of Israeli units going on from the > sea. There was > > no > > reason for the USS Liberty to not be doing precisely what > she was > > doing. She > > was in international waters and had full right to be > there. > > > > And then to assert that you don't care because it was > forty years old > > does > > not ring true, either. If you are disinterested, by > bother to make the > > posting you did? > > > > Do you think that we are so ignorant of history that you > can post any > > old > > bit of nonsense and not get called on it? > > > > What is your agenda, Harry? > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of > > Harry Pollard > > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:51 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Christoph Reuss' > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] with friends & gov't like > these,who needs > > al-Qaeda? > > > > I just googled and read the first one that came up. > > > > The piece brought in a number of outside contributions > > which I haven't checked, but have simply accepted. > > > > The reports of the survivors offer little help as they > > didn't know anything about why the attack was made. > > > > Overall, I would say the attack was indeed an accident > > brought on in the heat of war. > > > > I can see no advantage to the Israelis in deliberately > > attacking an American ship. In fact, it could only mean > > trouble for them. The Liberty apparently didn't get the > > messages to get out of there, which is peculiar. > > > > Apparently all American ships were kept 100 miles from > the > > conflict. Have no idea why this ship was left in harms > way > > or was there in the first place. > > > > I seem to remember that Egypt ran a blockade and perhaps > > the Israelis assumed this was part of that tactic. > > > > However, I'm not particularly interested. It happened 40 > > years ago and has disappeared into the mist of time. > > > > Harry > > > > ********************************** > > Henry George School of Social Science > > of Los Angeles. > > Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042 > > 818 352-4141 > > ********************************** > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Lawrence de Bivort > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 9:56 PM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Christoph Reuss' > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] with friends & gov't like > > these,who needs > > > al-Qaeda? > > > > > > Harry, this is a hard-core pro-Israeli web site. I read > > their materials and > > > it ignores all evidence -- and there is a mountain of > it > > -- that the attack > > > was deliberate. It gives the standard Israeli story and > > offers no new > > > information or line of analysis, and it is based > largely > > on secondary > > > sources. The site is worthless as a source of > information > > about what > > > happened, though it does a good job of summarizing the > > Israeli > > > arguments. > > > > > > Surely in your research you did more than check out > just > > this site? > > > There > > > are several books and transcripts of hearings and > > documentary > > > collections > > > that you may want to look into, and a good place to > start > > is with the > > > written accounts of what took place by the men who were > > on the USS > > > Liberty. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Lawry > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > Behalf Of > > > Harry Pollard > > > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 8:26 PM > > > To: 'Christoph Reuss' > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] with friends & gov't like > > these,who needs > > > al-Qaeda? > > > > > > Check out: > > > > > > > > > http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty .html > > > > > > Harry > > > > > > ********************************** > > > Henry George School of Social Science > > > of Los Angeles. > > > Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042 > > > 818 352-4141 > > > ********************************** > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:futurework- > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christoph > > > Reuss > > > > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 3:34 PM > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: [Futurework] with friends & gov't like > these, > > > who needs al- > > > > Qaeda? > > > > > > > > > > > > <<the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. > Navy > > > from coming > > > > to the > > > > defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet > > > military rescue > > > > support > > > > while the ship was under attack ... never before in > > > American naval > > > > history > > > > has a rescue mission been cancelled when an > American > > > ship was > > > > under attack>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/article > > > s/0603liber > > > > ty0603 > > > > .html > > > > > > > > > > > > 'USS Liberty' veterans demand investigation > > > > > > > > Jun. 3, 2007 12:00 AM > > > > > > > > Conclusions submitted in October 2003 to the Office > of > > > the U.S. > > > > Secretary > > > > of Defense by the USS Liberty Veterans Association, > > Inc., > > > in > > > > demanding a > > > > congressional investigation into the aborted rescue > > > during the attack of > > > > the USS Liberty and subsequent alleged cover-up. > > > > > > > > The group also calls for a new Naval Court of Inquiry > > and > > > that June 8 > > > > be > > > > officially recognized as USS Liberty Remembrance Day. > > > > > > > > 1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial > > > surveillance, Israel > > > > launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS > > > Liberty, the > > > > world's > > > > most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 > > dead > > > and 173 > > > > wounded > > > > American servicemen (a casualty rate of 70 percent, > in > > a > > > crew of 294); > > > > > > > > 2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately > 25 > > > minutes, during > > > > which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm > > > canisters on USS > > > > Liberty's bridge and fired 30mm cannons and rockets > > into > > > our ship, > > > > causing > > > > 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; > > > survivors estimate > > > > 30 > > > > or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum > > of > > > 12 attacking > > > > Israeli planes which were jamming all five American > > > emergency radio > > > > channels; > > > > > > > > 3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the > > > firing of > > > > torpedoes, > > > > but the machine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and > > > stretcher-bearers > > > > as > > > > they struggled to save their ship and crew; the > Israeli > > > torpedo boats > > > > later > > > > returned to machine-gun at close range three of the > > > Liberty's life rafts > > > > that had been lowered into the water by survivors to > > > rescue the most > > > > seriously wounded; > > > > > > > > 4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's > > attack > > > was a deliberate > > > > attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her > entire > > > crew; evidence > > > > of > > > > such intent is supported by statements from Secretary > > of > > > State Dean > > > > Rusk, > > > > Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA > > Director > > > Richard > > > > Helms, > > > > former NSA Directors Lt. Gen. William Odom, USA > (Ret.), > > > Adm. > > > > Bobby Ray > > > > Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA > > deputy > > > directors > > > > Oliver > > > > Kirby and Maj. Gen. John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and > > > former > > > > Ambassador > > > > Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967; > > > > > > > > 5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed > acts > > > of murder > > > > against > > > > American servicemen and an act of war against the > > United > > > States; > > > > > > > > 6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House > > > deliberately > > > > prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of > > USS > > > Liberty > > > > by > > > > recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while > the > > > ship was under > > > > attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is > > > supported by > > > > statements of Capt. Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of > > the > > > aircraft > > > > carrier > > > > USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the > Sixth > > > Fleet > > > > carrier > > > > division commander, at the time of the attack; never > > > before in > > > > American > > > > naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled > when > > an > > > American > > > > ship was > > > > under attack; > > > > > > > > 7. That although Liberty was saved from almost > certain > > > destruction > > > > through > > > > the heroic efforts of the ship's captain, William L. > > > McGonagle (MOH), > > > > and > > > > his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later > > > threatened with > > > > "court-martial, imprisonment or worse" if they > exposed > > > the truth; and > > > > were > > > > abandoned by their own government; > > > > > > > > 8. That due to the influence of Israel's powerful > > > supporters in the > > > > United > > > > States, the White House deliberately covered up the > > facts > > > of this attack > > > > from the American people; > > > > > > > > 9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel > > > lobby in the United > > > > States, this attack remains the only serious naval > > > incident that has never > > > > been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this > day, > > no > > > surviving > > > > crewmember has been permitted to officially and > > publicly > > > testify about > > > > the > > > > attack; > > > > > > > > 10. That there has been an official cover-up without > > > precedent in > > > > American > > > > naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is > now > > > supported by > > > > statements of Rear Adm. Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), > > > former Judge > > > > Advocate > > > > General of the Navy; and Capt. Ward Boston, USN, > > (Ret.), > > > the chief > > > > counsel > > > > to the Navy's 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty > attack; > > > > > > > > 11. That the truth about Israel's attack and > subsequent > > > White House > > > > cover-up continues to be officially concealed from > the > > > American > > > > people to > > > > the present day and is a national disgrace; > > > > > > > > 12. That a danger to our national security exists > > > whenever our elected > > > > officials are willing to subordinate American > interests > > > to those of any > > > > foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to > > > challenge Israel's > > > > interests when they conflict with American interests; > > > this policy, > > > > evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and > the > > > subsequent > > > > official > > > > cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety > of > > > Americans and > > > > the > > > > security of the United States. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > More information: www.ussliberty.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > SpamWall: Mail to this addy is deleted unread unless > it > > > contains the > > > > keyword > > > > "igve". > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > Futurework@fes.uwaterloo.ca > > > > http://fes.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - > > Release > > > Date: > > > > 6/1/2007 11:22 AM > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - > Release > > > Date: 6/1/2007 11:22 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Futurework mailing list > > > Futurework@fes.uwaterloo.ca > > > http://fes.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - > Release > > Date: > > > 6/1/2007 11:22 AM > > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.14/845 - Release > > Date: 6/12/2007 6:39 AM > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Futurework mailing list > > Futurework@fes.uwaterloo.ca > > http://fes.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Futurework mailing list > > Futurework@fes.uwaterloo.ca > > http://fes.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.14/845 - Release > Date: > > 6/12/2007 6:39 AM > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.14/845 - Release > Date: 6/12/2007 6:39 AM > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > Futurework@fes.uwaterloo.ca > http://fes.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.14/845 - Release > Date: 6/12/2007 6:39 AM > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list Futurework@fes.uwaterloo.ca http://fes.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
