Dear list members Instead direct cooling with steam , it is posible use indirect cooling later use hudrogen rich methane recycle gqs reducing steam consumption!There are several patents to make the process simple
Pannirselvam P V BRAZIL On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM, Jim Leach <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Florian, > > If one wants to burn the product gas in an engine or a gas turbine you have > to cool and clean the gas anyway. So dropping the temperature would be a > part of the tar removal process and would occur anyway. Adding water is not > good because the product gas must be well below the dew point for the > combustion device. So it you put it in for methanation, you will have to > take it out later. But what I was interested in was simply converting the H2 > to CH4, because engines (including GT's) don't really like H2 (it burns too > fast). Reciprocating engines in particular, would much prefer a steady diet > of CH4. But I think I understand from your answer is that it is not worth > it. Unfortunately, an answer I was expecting. > > *JAMES T. LEACH, P.E.* > *President* > ** > *DANA TECHNOLOGIES, INC.* > *32242 Paseo Adelanto, Suite D* > *San Juan Capistrano, CA 92675* > *Ph 949-496-6516* > *Fx 949-496-8133* > *Mobile 949-933-6518* > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Florian > Nagel > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 01, 2011 2:52 PM > > *To:* 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification' > *Subject:* Re: [Gasification] back to gasification > > Hi James > > > > I cant comment on the cost of the methanation step but I can comment on > your idea regarding a methanation step as fuel upgrade in a gasification- > and gas engine-based power plant. I did my thesis together with Jan at PSI > working on the combination of high-temperature fuel cells with woody biomass > gasifiers: http://e-collection.library.ethz.ch/view/eth:41553 . Hi Jan, I > m still on that list as you see :D > > > > Methanation is an exothermic process that yields the highest methane > concentration in the product gas when kept around 400C process temperature. > Hence, you ll first have to cool your syngas down to 400C. Depending on your > gasifier type and syngas composition, you might get into carbon deposition > problems (Boudouard reaction for example where 2 CO molecules decompose into > carbon and carbon dioxide). You can overcome these problems by injecting > steam into your syngas (which will cool it down at the same time..) which > you will also need to increase your hydrogen atom content in a way that > allows methanation. Then you can take it from there and produce methane. > > > > Problem I see is that by introducing water into your fuel gas, you already > lower its heating value. This results in a lower combustion temperature in > your gas engine. Gas engines are limited by the Carnot efficiency rule that > clearly states that the efficiency of a combustion engine increases with the > difference between the temperature of the hot compressed combusted gas and > the temperature of the expanded exhaust gas. Hence, the efficiency of a > combustion engine running on humidized syngas should definitely be lower > than running on unhumidified syngas. Next problem is, during the methanation > you have to cool the reactor. Thus you are again reducing the energy content > of your syngas or by that time synthetic methane (relative to the energy > content of the initial feedstock). The energy you extract from the > methanation process is in form of low-temperature heat (400C) which you can > hardly use economically to produce electricity with a steam cycle. Once you > have your synthetic methane gas mixture, you ll have to reduce the high > water content of it to not run into above mentioned efficiency issues of the > combustion engine. This can only be done by cooling the gas close to ambient > temperature were the water simply condenses. Another point in the process > were you extract energy at very very low temperature level. I would consider > this energy as a complete loss. From there you can use the dried, cold > synthetic methane in your engine and produce electricity. > > > > To put it in numbers: Good gasification-gas engine plants reach > efficiencies around 25 to 30% without bottoming-cycle (steam cycle to use > exhaust heat). The methanation process has an efficiency around 65%. > Together with a very high combustion engine efficiency of 42.5%, you end up > with a maximum efficiency of a gasification-methanation-gas engine scheme of > around 27.5%. However, with considerably higher equipment cost. I definitely > recommend not to use a methanation step as fuel upgrading step but to use > the syngas directly in your engine. In any case, the world totally changes > if you aim at using high-temperature fuel cells, gas turbines or if you want > to make the wood energy transportable and storable. The latter was the idea > of the PSI methanation project given Switzerlands dependence on foreign gas > imports. > > > > Cheers > > Florian > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Jim Leach > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 01, 2011 15:51 > *To:* 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification' > *Subject:* Re: [Gasification] back to gasification > > > > Jan, > > I am curious what method you selected for tar removal. Also, was the > methanation step expensive? The methane would make a better engine fuel > than the H2 and CO but I am concerned about the cost. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > *JAMES T. LEACH, P.E.* > > *President* > > > > *DANA TECHNOLOGIES, INC.* > > *32242 Paseo Adelanto, Suite D* > > *San Juan Capistrano, CA 92675* > > *Ph 949-496-6516* > > *Fx 949-496-8133* > > *Mobile 949-933-6518* > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Jan > Kopyscinski > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 01, 2011 1:13 PM > *To:* Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification > *Subject:* Re: [Gasification] back to gasification > > Hi Kevin, > > I did my Phd thesis on this topic. You can find more information there: > http://e-collection.library.ethz.ch/view/eth:1059 > > or under www.bio-sng.com and www.biosng.com, > http://www.biofuelstp.eu/bio-sng.html and on other pages. > > In a nut shell the process consits of: > 1) low temperature steam gasification > 2) gas cleaning (ash, tar, H2S, ...) > 3) methanation = conversion of the syngas into methan (catalytic process, > mostly Nickelcatalyst) > CO + 3 H2 --> CH4 + H2O > CO + H2O --> H2 + CO2 > > If you use a different catalyst you can go for higher hydrocarbon such as > Fischer Tropsch Diesel, or Methanol, .... > > 4) Fuel upgrading = removal of H2O, CO2 > > We at the Paul Scherrer Institute in Switzerland (http://tpe.web.psi.ch/) > investigated this process from wood to BioSNG in two scales for more than > 1000h. > > Regards > > Jan > > - > > Dr. sc. Jan Kopyscinski > > Postdoctoral fellow > > Department of Chemical and Petroleum Engineering > > Schulich School of Engineering > > University of Calgary > > 2500 University Drive NW > > Calgary, Alberta, Canada T2N 1N4 > > > > Email: [email protected] > > Phone: 001 403 2109575 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *Von:* Kevin <[email protected]> > *Gesendet:* May 31, 2011 5:02:24 PM > *An:* "Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification" < > [email protected]> > *Betreff:* Re: [Gasification] back to gasification > > Dear Jan > > > > Very interesting!! > > > > What steam temperature and pressure is required to gasify wood? > > > > Once one has such gas, what sort processing is required to convert it to > CH4? (That is, what temperatures, pressures, catalysts, etc) > > > > Is there any way this can be done on a small scale? > > > > Is there any way this process can be modified to produce methanol on a > small scale? If so, this would be awesome... it would then yield a very > portable liquid fuel. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Kevin > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Jan Kopyscinski <[email protected]> > > *To:* Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and > gasification<[email protected]> > > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 31, 2011 11:30 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [Gasification] back to gasification > > > > > Hi, > > First of all, there are at least two different types of biofuel: > First Generation: agricultural feedstock, which is converted by means of > biochemical processes (i.e., digestion) --> Biogas > Second Generation: woody biomass that is converted via thermochemical > converiosn into a producer or so-calles syngas (Gasification). > Thus, if your goal is to produce Methan or Natural Gas substite for a gas > engine or transportation fuel you have different options. But you need to > know what is your feedstock (dry , wet, digestable or not digestable such as > wood): > If you have a rather dry feedstock you can go for steam gasifiaction (no > air, means no Nitrogen). The produced syngas you can catalytilcally convert > to CH4, CO2 and H2O. Prior to the methanation process you need to remove the > sulphur since it is deactivating your catalyts. H2O and CO2 can then be > removed. This process has been investiaget by the Paul Scherrer Institiute > in Switzerland (www.psi.ch and www.bio-sng.com). > Removal of nitrogen is too expensive, thus you should avoid feeding it into > your process. 2 vol% to max 5vol% N2 in the methan rich gas is acceptable. > > Regards, > > Jan > ------------------------------ > > *Von:* "Pannirselvam P.V" <[email protected]> > *Gesendet:* May 31, 2011 12:46:54 PM > *An:* "Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification" < > [email protected]> > *Betreff:* Re: [Gasification] back to gasification > > Dear A.D Karve > > > > One of the project we have been studying is based on the > IGT,Instuite Gas technology patented process called Biotherm , in which > the wood gas or syngqs can be passed into the biodigestor, in which CO > and Hydrogen can be converted into methane ; the NOX .COX, SOX removed > via simple known wet or dry process using activated charcoal and lime ; > the methane is then compressed.The N can be removed as ammonia,as this can > be very toxic to bio methane bacteria; Syngas obtained via pyrogas can > reduce this N2 problem and complexity.Thus pyrogas technology has more > potential than wood gas technology > > > > we are studying how to make this complex process into simple innovative > process to make possible charcoal and methane economy which is practiced > in the developed country in big scale can be made possible in developing > village level technology too in small scale ,The project is yet in design > stage to reduce CO2 to use as liquid fertilizer too increasing the > calorific valued the compressed biogas. > > > > Yours truely > > Pannirselvam > > > > > > On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Anand Karve <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dear List, > We are already using, in India, wood gas made from agricultural waste > to run stationary internal combustion engines. But, for using it as > automobile fuel, it would have to be filled into cylinders, for which > the nitrogen in the wood gas would have to be removed in order to > reduce its bulk and to increase its calorfiic value. Does anybody have > a suggestion as to how this can be achieved? > Yours > A.D.Karve > > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 6172 (20110601) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 6172 (20110601) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 6172 (20110601) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 6172 (20110601) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > > -- ************************************************ P.V.PANNIRSELVAM ASSOCIATE . 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