On Wed, 2021-04-07 at 00:22 +0200, Mark Wielaard wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Lets change the subject now that this is about GCC and the FSF.
> 
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 01:46:29PM +0100, Jonathan Wakely via Gcc
> wrote:
> > Probably unintentionally, but he has allowed the GNU Project to
> > become
> > a nasty cult of personality. The FSF seems to be imploding (with
> > mass
> > resignations in the past week). I don't think GCC benefits from
> > being
> > associated with either of them.
> 
> I admit it isn't looking very good and their last announcement is
> certainly odd: https://status.fsf.org/notice/3833062
> 
> But apparently the board is still meeting this week to discuss and
> might provide a better statement about the way out of this. So lets
> give them a couple more days before writing them off completely.
> 
> > Is there any incident where FSF being the copyright holder for GCC
> > has
> > made a difference?
> 
> Yes, at least in my experience it has been helpful that the FSF held
> copyright of code that had been assigned by various individuals and
> companies. It allowed the merger of GNU Classpath and libgcj for
> example. There have been various intances where it was helpful that
> the FSF could unilatrally adjust the license terms especially when
> the
> original contributor couldn't be found or didn't exist (as company)
> anymore.

This benefit arises from having a single entity own the copyright in
the code.  It doesn't necessarily have to be the FSF to gain this
benefit; it just happens that the FSF currently owns the copyright on
the code.

Another, transitional approach might be to find another Free Software
non-profit and for contributors to start assigning copyright on ongoing
work to that other non-profit.  That way there would be only two
copyright holders on the code; if the FSF somehow survives its current
death-spiral then the other nonprofit could assign copyright back to
the FSF;  if it doesn't, well, we've already got bigger problems.

> And it is really helpful that we don't have to ask permission of
> every
> individual contributor to be able to create the GCC manual (because
> the GPL code and GFDL text could otherwise not be combined) but that
> the FSF can grant an exception to one of the developers to create it.

Alternatively, the copyright holder could relicense the documentation
to a license that is explicitly compatible with the GPL, such as the
GPL itself, and not require us to jump through hoops.  (Or we could
start a non-GFDL body of documentation under a different copyright
holder, but I'm not volunteering for that effort).  In case it's not
clear, I think the GFDL is a terrible license, and that it's always a
mistake to use it for software documentation.

> > Are there any GPL violations involving GCC code
> > that were resolved only because all copyright resides with a single
> > entity, that couldn't have been resolved on behalf of individual
> > copyright holders?
> 
> I think it has been very helpful preventing those violations. If you
> only have individual copyright holders instead of an organisation
> with
> the means to actually resolve such violations people pay much more
> attention to play by the rules. See for example the linux kernel
> project. I believe there are so many GPL violations precisely because
> almost no individual has the means to take up a case.

Again, the "single entity" doesn't need to be the FSF.

> > Are we still worried about BigCorp trying to do a proprietary fork
> > of
> > GCC? Because BigCorp, OtherCorp etc. have shown that they would
> > prefer
> > to create a new toolchain from scratch rather than use GNU code.
> > And
> > if EvilCorp want to make their own proprietary compiler with secret
> > optimizations, they'll just use LLVM instead of bothering to
> > violate
> > the GPL. The work done to make it impossible to steal GCC code was
> > a
> > success: nobody is even interested in stealing it now. There is an
> > easier option.
> 
> I admit that the only way proprietary compiler writers can compete
> with GCC is by producing a lax-permissive licensed compiler is an odd
> way to win for Free Software. 
> But we should still make sure that GCC
> itself makes it so that users can actually get the sources of the
> compiler they are using and not just some sources that might or might
> not correspond to the binary they are using. Making sure that the
> code
> reaches actual users and not just some corporate hackers to create a
> proprietary compiler is what counts IMHO. And using strong copyleft
> and having a shared copyright pool of code held by an entity that can
> enforce that is still necessary IMHO.
> 
> > Can we break our (already weak) ties to GNU?

It's not clear to me to what extent "GNU" is a thing that exists.  I
agree with much of Andy Wingo's October 2019 blog post:
http://www.wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-gnu


IMHO, "GNU" can mean various things:
- the small family of "g"-prefixed toolchain/low-level projects (gcc,
glibc, gdb) that work together and attend the GNU Tools Cauldron
- anything hosted under the gnu.org domain (including this mailing
list)
- things that have been blessed by RMS with the "GNU" title for
adhering to his own terms of ideological correctness
- an attempt to reimplement what in the 1980s passed for state-of-the-
art
- an idea, or vision, either political, or technological, or some blend
of both
- an expansive definition for whenever RMS wants to claim that other
people's work is somehow "GNU/Linux"
- various other definitions, I'm sure


> I hope GCC stays part of GNU, but that we might reconsider whether it
> is in the best interest of GNU and GCC as Free Software project to
> still be associated with the FSF. The GNU Assembly is having a
> similar
> discussion right now
> https://lists.gnu.tools/postorius/lists/assembly.lists.gnu.tools/

For myself, I'm interested in copyleft low-level tools being used to
build a Free Software operating system, but the "GNU" name may be
permanently tarnished for me; I have no wish to be associated with a
self-appointed "chief GNUisance".  I hope the FSF can be saved, since
it would be extremely inconvenient to have to move.

My opinions, not my employer's, as usual.
Dave

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