Give me a break, Neotarf. I am critiquing the article and the decisions by its author and its publisher. It doesn't surprise me that having someone of Keilana's stature drop more f-bombs in a couple of paragraphs than I heard on a bus full of high school students this morning will change the climate to suggest that it is now perfectly acceptable to curse out people everywhere under every circumstance.
For some strange reason, it appears the people on this list are celebrating that fact. And it has nothing to do with gender, really, and everything to do with making Wikipedia a pleasant place to work. Keilana's actions have encouraged people to make it less so. Risker/Anne On 22 February 2016 at 12:46, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote: > @Risker, the double standard is that several individuals dropped f-bombs > on the page, but only the woman got tsked. Talk pages of various users, > not to mention the arbitration committee's pages, routinely contain > f-bombs, which I have never seen anyone remark on. JimboTalk has > occasionally seen some respectful and considerate pushback, but nothing > like the strident comments on the Signpost piece. True, there was a former > arbitrator who had an essay about the word deleted, but that was before my > time. In the current climate, an individual can drop the c-bomb on a > women's task force page with impunity, while someone who marks such a > thread with a NSFW tag can be permabanned for doing so. Wikipedia has > become f-Wikipedia; Keilana has claimed her place at the table. > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 11:33 PM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> risker: >> i'm kinda with you about defining deviancy down >> >> it's just that things are so bad can't go lower >> article subjects are already dismayed by the opaque unfriendly culture >> they periodically ask for article deletion >> librarians are advised about the "cultural buzzsaw" >> having a safe environment on line is a lost cause >> but we can have a grim determination with much cursing >> >> cheers >> >> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 7:43 PM, Risker <risker...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I think I've made myself clear, Pete. I don't think that anything I say >>> will make a difference, any more than anything I have ever said has changed >>> the sub-optimal behaviour of any editor who thinks it's acceptable >>> professional behaviour to cuss all over the place. I'm just really >>> disappointed that people who used to be in the "let's make this a more >>> pleasant and positive place to do our work" have gone over to the other >>> side. >>> >>> Risker >>> >>> On 21 February 2016 at 19:38, Pete Forsyth <petefors...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Risker, I want to be clear: >>>> >>>> It's not that I don't see a problem. I'm actually pretty sympathetic to >>>> your view; but I think your point has been made very strongly already, and >>>> the important audience is the Signpost editorial staff. I am confident they >>>> have heard the message, and I don't see how further discussion moves us in >>>> a better direction. The past can't be changed. I suppose the Signpost could >>>> retract the op-ed, but I rather doubt you're seeking something so >>>> extreme...or am I wrong? >>>> >>>> -Pete >>>> [[User:Peteforsyth]] >>>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Risker <risker...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I feel very sad that you fellows don't see the problem in using this >>>>> kind of language to describe women. "Badass" isn't a compliment. After the >>>>> first two descriptions, I was fully expecting to see "brilliant >>>>> motherf***er" to describe the third one. I'm surprised it wasn't used, in >>>>> fact. >>>>> >>>>> The subjects of our articles deserve to be treated much better than >>>>> this. >>>>> >>>>> Further, I'm incredibly disappointed that this got published in The >>>>> Signpost. On Emily's own page...well, okay. But instead of drawing >>>>> attention to the women who are the subjects of the articles, almost all of >>>>> the discussion is about the language used to describe them....and pointing >>>>> out that several of them already had articles about them that were >>>>> improved, rather than that they'd not been written about at all. >>>>> >>>>> All in all, it impressed me as an island of lovely flowers in a garden >>>>> with a winter's worth of St. Bernard droppings. >>>>> >>>>> Risker >>>>> >>>>> On 21 February 2016 at 17:13, Pete Forsyth <petefors...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> +1 Ryan. >>>>>> >>>>>> This was one article, and no Wikipedians, readers, or article >>>>>> subjects were injured as a result of its publication. I don't really >>>>>> have a >>>>>> strong opinion one way or the other about whether using language in this >>>>>> way is OK. But the main lesson to me is how much the English Wikipedia >>>>>> community has come to value the Signpost as an institution. It's hard to >>>>>> imagine such any Signpost column inspiring so much passion, say, five >>>>>> years >>>>>> ago. Above all, I think this constitutes a strong endorsement of the >>>>>> general value of the Signpost. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Pete >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Ryan Kaldari <rkald...@wikimedia.org >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The depressing thing to me is that the English Wikipedia community >>>>>>> takes all of 10 minutes to work itself into a frenzy about the use of >>>>>>> profanity in a positive, non-personal way, but if an editor on Wikipedia >>>>>>> calls a female editor a cunt, no one dares to bat an eye. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Risker <risker...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is it a double standard? If that page hadn't been written by >>>>>>>> Keilana, would it have been published as is? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps you're right, it *is* a double standard. Just not quite >>>>>>>> the one some think it would be. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Risker/Anne >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 21 February 2016 at 08:31, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Op-ed about systemic bias and articles created. Interesting >>>>>>>>> double standard about profanity in the comment section. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2016-02-17/Op-ed >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Gendergap mailing list >>>>>>>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, >>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Gendergap mailing list >>>>>>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, >>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Gendergap mailing list >>>>>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, >>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Gendergap mailing list >>>>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, >>>>>> please visit: >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Gendergap mailing list >>>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, >>>>> please visit: >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Gendergap mailing list >>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, >>>> please visit: >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gendergap mailing list >>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please >>> visit: >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gendergap mailing list >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please >> visit: >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please > visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >
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