Yes, general list and majority of binding votes AFAIK. please start another thread with a set of well defined choices to vote on.
thanks, dims On 8/31/06, Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 31 Aug 06, at 12:18 AM 31 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > Jason, > > Justin used the word "common decency". No one can twist anyone's arm. > If either the ibiblio folks or Maven PMC folks don't honor the > request, well, it's upto them...Here we are setting policy for us the > incubator participants, incubator mentors and incubator pmc folks. If > people working on the incubation project break the policy, then that's > an issue for us. > It's not policy until we vote on it. So I guess it's time to vote. How is this done, no the general list? For 72 hours? A majority wins? > -- dims > > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On 30 Aug 06, at 11:18 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote: >> >> > Hmm, we are not setting any limits on anyone else, just >> ourselves. We >> > the incubator folks will not automatically sync *our* repo to the >> > central repo *automatically*. Everyone else can do what they want >> > within their rights. >> > >> >> That doesn't really jive with what Justin said in an earlier thread. >> In that we should tell people not to redistribute incubator artifacts >> and ask they comply out of courtesy. >> >> > -- dims >> > >> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 10:16 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote: >> >> >> >> > Please see this email from Noel: >> >> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator- >> >> > general&m=115440482328786&w=2 >> >> > >> >> >> >> Why can't both aims be met? That of user protection and user >> >> convenience? >> >> >> >> I cannot see the how marking *each* and *every* incubator artifact >> >> with a version that clearly says it is from the Apache Incubator >> >> gives less clarity then adding a repository element. >> >> >> >> In a standard dependency report like: >> >> >> >> http://jackrabbit.apache.org/dependencies.html >> >> >> >> It would be very clear looking at the version that it came from >> the >> >> incubator. And if people download these artifacts with non-Maven >> >> tools like an Ant Task, Ivy or simply check in versions of these >> >> artifacts then they will clearly be seen as coming from the >> >> incubator. If we are going to make it clear then let's do it >> in the >> >> place where it will be seen by everyone regardless of the tool >> they >> >> use to build. >> >> >> >> Also the Maven 2.x IDE integration will soon have the ability >> to pull >> >> indices from repositories in order to provide drop down/searchable >> >> lists of available artifacts so it will be easy to grab new >> artifacts >> >> to put in your POMs. An IDE could easily provide a set of >> >> repositories to pull indices from at which point the user is >> going to >> >> merrily start pulling down dependencies. When you select an >> artifact >> >> you always select the version, like in the Eclipse integration, so >> >> people will see "apache-incubator" over and over. They will see >> the >> >> repository entry once. >> >> >> >> If I then had to go to the people doing IDE integration and say >> >> please don't include the apache incubator repository. So you are >> >> going to make us: >> >> >> >> 1) Deny people the right to distribute software as described in >> our >> >> license >> >> 2) Make the Maven developers go search out all third party >> >> integration efforts to prevent them from providing convenient >> access >> >> to certain repositories >> >> >> >> I think this is a little heavy handed, unfair and unnecessary. >> >> >> >> > -- dims >> >> > >> >> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 7:53 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > Jason, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Is it rocket science to add a new repo location in pom.xml? >> >> *Any* >> >> >> > maven newbie learns *very* quickly how to add a new repo. Are >> >> you >> >> >> > stating that *IF* the artifacts are not in the central >> repo they >> >> >> won't >> >> >> > find it and won't know how to use it? >> >> >> >> >> >> As a force of habit most Maven users, particularly those coming >> >> from >> >> >> Maven 1.x, assume all open source artifacts are in the central >> >> >> repository. And in most cases for Maven 2.x all artifact >> >> required are >> >> >> placed in the central repository. >> >> >> >> >> >> It would be an unnecessary inconvenience. If the goal is to >> raise >> >> >> awareness that it is from the incubator then it can be done >> >> with the >> >> >> version. It could even be >> >> >> >> >> >> 1.0-apache-incubator-foo (1) >> >> >> >> >> >> As I think that would be preferable to users and that is >> >> abundantly >> >> >> clear I think. >> >> >> >> >> >> > The least anyone will need to >> >> >> > know is the artifact id and version id and they find this >> >> when they >> >> >> > browse a project's pages, are you stating that a user will >> never >> >> >> look >> >> >> > at anyone's web site or download area and will *ONLY* look at >> >> >> ibiblio >> >> >> > repo and decide to use a project? >> >> >> >> >> >> The whole point of Maven is to make this easy for users and not >> >> have >> >> >> to look at a project's site. Maven users expect what they need >> >> to be >> >> >> in the central repository as shown by the many threads when >> >> users go >> >> >> to use Sun JARs and we don't have them in the central >> repository. >> >> >> >> >> >> > If they do indeed look, isn't it >> >> >> > trivial to add instructions on adding info on how to add the >> >> >> > incubation repo? Where's the problem? >> >> >> >> >> >> A lot of times people actually go to the central repository to >> >> find >> >> >> the artifact's groupId and artifactId. They don't go to project >> >> >> websites, they go to the authority which is the central >> >> repository. >> >> >> >> >> >> If the goal here is user awareness then I think using an >> >> version like >> >> >> (1) supports this end to a great extent while being more >> >> convenient >> >> >> for the average Maven user. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -- dims >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 1:48 PM 30 Aug 06, Justin Erenkrantz wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 8/30/06, Dan Diephouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> policy, so I see those as in conflict right now. So I >> >> want to >> >> >> >> know on >> >> >> >> >> what grounds the incubator can prevent me from requesting >> >> that >> >> >> >> some >> >> >> >> >> incubating jars from being uploaded to ibiblio. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Common decency? If we (as the project owners) ask those >> >> >> >> artifacts not >> >> >> >> > to be posted, then they shouldn't be posted as a matter of >> >> >> >> courtesy. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It just means that we have to start watching for requests >> >> >> coming from >> >> >> >> users to put artifacts in the repository. Effectively you >> are >> >> >> asking >> >> >> >> us to deny the terms of redistribution stated in our license >> >> >> are you >> >> >> >> not? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We could watch for requests going into Ibiblio, but we can't >> >> >> prevent >> >> >> >> someone else from putting in a repository that they might >> use. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> What is going to happen is that people are going to want >> to use >> >> >> these >> >> >> >> artifacts and they will want to rsync Ibiblio, which many >> >> >> people do, >> >> >> >> and then attempt to rsync the incubator repository. We are >> >> just >> >> >> >> going to try and circumvent a path that we cannot fully >> >> block off. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't see what is not clear with *every* incubator >> artifact >> >> >> being >> >> >> >> marked with a version that has "incubator" in it. Plus the >> >> reports >> >> >> >> that can be generated give a clear view to users what >> they are >> >> >> >> consuming. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I read this: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator- >> >> >> >> general&m=115440663222532&w=2 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> and to be frank (4) is somewhat paradoxical to me. You >> want an >> >> >> >> incubator project to thrive, and grow while we are >> tacitly, yet >> >> >> >> actively, discouraging their use? I think we should let >> >> people use >> >> >> >> their common sense to protect themselves. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> What is being envisioned here as the worst case scenario of >> >> >> using an >> >> >> >> incubator artifact for a failed incubator project? The mail >> >> says >> >> >> >> protect the user, but from what? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm not going to discourage the use of a project I'm >> >> mentoring and >> >> >> >> fully support. I'm going to get everyone on the planet I >> can to >> >> >> use >> >> >> >> it as fast and as widely as possible. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -- justin >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general- >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general- >> >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jason van Zyl >> >> >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general- >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general- >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -- >> >> >> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web >> Service >> >> >> > Developers) >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general- >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general- >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Jason van Zyl >> >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general- >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general- >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service >> >> > Developers) >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general- >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> Jason van Zyl >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service >> > Developers) >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > >> > >> >> Jason van Zyl >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > > > -- > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service > Developers) > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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