Agreed, it's not worth debating project lead as a formal or informal construct. I don't think we are on the same page. Certainly some projects have a de facto lead that coincide with Chair and I'm pretty sure in some cases that is an honorary arrangement agreed to by the community.
> On Dec 29, 2014, at 11:51 AM, Rich Bowen <rbo...@rcbowen.com> wrote: > > > >> On 12/29/2014 01:45 PM, Andrew Purtell wrote: >> There are honorary and practical reasons why a project may view the PMC >> Chair and the project leader as one in the same. >> >> Honorary: The community elevated one member as lead and assigned the Chair >> role out of respect. >> >> Practical: The PMC Chair has the power to dissolve the PMC, and is an >> officer of the Foundation. Nobody else on the project has such power nor >> indemnification. "Secretary" as a term does not adequately encompass that. > > That's all well and good, however: > > 1) I'm not aware of even a single time that the PMC chair has actually > unilaterally dissolved the PMC, and I think the board would have serious > objections if that were to actually happen, as it would indicate pretty > serious community failure. > > 2) ASF projects don't have project leads. Sure, a project may, at one time or > another, have a person that is clearly at the forefront of decision making, > but to designate them a project lead indicates dysfunction in a > collaboration-based structure. > > This seems a tad of a diversion from the topic, but definitely worth > mentioning. > > >> >> >>> On Dec 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Rich Bowen <rbo...@rcbowen.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 12/23/2014 03:34 PM, sebb wrote: >>>>>> Flex had three great mentors, but to expect them to be the PMC Chair on >>>>>> graduation would have been problematic. They were great mentors because >>>>>> they had lots of experience from their work on other Apache projects, and >>>>>> thus didn’t have time to stay active on a new TLP, plus they really >>>>>> weren’t users or developers of the technology, just our coaches on the >>>>>> Apache Way, and thus wouldn’t be good Chair candidates as they weren’t as >>>>>> invested in the technology. But they did stick around on at least the >>>>>> private@ lists and continue to do so even 2 years after graduation where >>>>>> we consult them on occasion. To require that a mentor be an active >>>>>> contributor limits the kinds of technologies that can come to Apache to >>>>>> only those who can interest someone with a lot of spare cycles. >>>>>> >>>>>> IMO, the mentors job is to teach, not to lead. >>>> The job of the PMC chair is almost entirely administrative. >>>> They are the link between the board and the PMC and their main role is >>>> to ensure the board gets timely reports and to feed back comments from >>>> the board. >>>> >>>> If a PMC is relying on the chair to drive it forward technically, then >>>> I think something has gone wrong with the PMC. >>> >>> Indeed. Big +1 on this. >>> >>> There are some projects that I've been watching lately where the PMC chair >>> is viewed as the project lead, and that has a number of problems that go >>> along with it. The PMC chair is a secretary, whose job is to file the right >>> paperwork. A *hugely* important role, but not a technical lead role. >>> >>> -- >>> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen >>> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > -- > Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen > http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
