On 2015-07-27 00:04, Ross Gardler wrote:
Wait. I think this is overstating the "displeasure".
I don't see anyone saying the feedback is not valuable. I see mentors being
asked to clearly state their recommendation with reference to the feedback. The
thread was too long and argumentative to draw any conclusions.
I also see concerns that these issues are raised at the point of discussing
graduation. That is too late.
At risk of nitpicking on semantics; Discussing graduation should be
about whether or not a project is ready to graduate, should it not?
There should not be a moment in a podling's life, past a completed
graduation vote, where it is "too late" to voice your concern,
otherwise, what's the point of having a discussion if it's expected that
everyone agrees?
As stated elsewhere, unfortunately we have situations where a lot of
topics that should have been covered at an earlier stage suddenly comes
up during a graduation discussion, or in the horrible cases, during a
graduation vote. We should strive to have as few of these moments as
possible - possibly by redesigning the incubator process a bit to
address this - , but I don't think we neither should nor can 'outlaw'
this. This is the 'point of no return' so to speak, and while I would
really love for this to be a walk in the park every single time (because
we did our homework in time), there will be cases where both mentors and
IPMC members have missed things (for various reasons), and until we
actually come up with a good replacement for "please take a good look at
our podling" that actually works and engages people besides the mentors,
this will remain the point in time where podlings are under the most
scrutiny.
To sum up: I think the attitude is a bit skewed here. We should not be
negative about a final big push, we should be glad that it exists - as
it shows people _can_ take the time to look into what's going on in
podlings - and look into why this manages to garner extra effort from
our volunteers and how we can encourage and incentivize them to do this
at an earlier stage.
Maybe we need a 'half way' discussion/review, maybe we need something
else. What we have right now does not seem to give the desired result.
I'll get some sleep, have some FOSS dreams (or the usual surreal ones
with a hedgehog chasing a lion) and see if I can't come up with a more
specific proposal for tomorrow :)
With regards,
Daniel.
This separate thread goes in a significantly different direction and should jot
be linked to any specific discuss thread.
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: David Nalley<mailto:da...@gnsa.us>
Sent: 7/26/2015 12:36 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org<mailto:general@incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Reform of Incubator {was; [DISCUSSION] Graduate Ignite from the
Apache Incubator)
Empower the Mentors to run the podlings, teach the newcomers and bring it
to TLP.
As a mentor of podlings, I dislike the above idea.
Mentors get busy, they miss things, sometimes big things. Sometimes
things that are obvious to an outsider are missed by mentors who don't
catch it. I've certainly been guilty of missing things, and having an
'outside IPMC member' call attention to that has caused me to go find
not just that problem, but other problems with a podling.
Even on smaller issues, Justin and Sebb run circles around me in
validating that releases comply with policy. I've voted affirmatively
on releases that Justin or Sebb has found issues; occasionally glaring
issues. I do not think that just because I am a mentor on $project and
they aren't invalidates concerns they may raise. I may have additional
insight, and be able to explain things.
Similarly, a vote was brought to the IPMC as to whether or not to
recommend graduation. We asked people to inspect the podling and vote,
and for some reason seem displeased when everyone doesn't unanimously
agree with the mentors. I am not sure whether to interpret that as
'non-mentor IPMC votes are discouraged', or whether 'dissenting
opinions are discouraged'. But telling the body responsible (the IPMC)
to leave podlings in its charge alone, particularly when prompted by a
vote called by the podling itself hardly seems appropriate.
--David
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