On 2016-09-25 17:20, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 1:03 PM, Ate Douma wrote:
and not all committers are required to commit :-)
That is interesting. Can you explain more about that?
What I meant to say is that at the ASF we also value and honour merit based on
things other than just churning code.
So committers can be, and are, voted in because of other contributions like
help organizing events, helping other community members, contributing to
documentation, etc., in general supporting the project and community at large.
Technically, an ASF account and membership of a project requires the 'commit'
bit, hence be a committer.
But I do know committers who never committed anything significantly, even
have become ASF member without needing to. And that is perfectly fine.
So my point was and is: not everyone on the initial committer list for NetBeans,
nor in the future, should be required to have actually contributed code to be
recognized and trusted by the community, or to become a committer in the future.
Also, we have done a call for people who want to be added to the initial
contributors list and will be adding a few more -- these are all well known
and established people in the NetBeans community who it would make sense to
include right away, rather than having to vote them in later.
Sure, that is of course a good thing to do.
I just wanted to make sure nobody misunderstands the purpose of the list.
And that not being on that list says nothing about who will or will not be able
to join afterwards.
It looks to me we are ready for voting on this proposal, as soon as the infra
assessment and discussion around it has been settled as well.
Regards, Ate
Thanks,
Geertjan
On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 1:03 PM, Ate Douma <a...@douma.nu> wrote:
On 2016-09-25 12:15, Ate Douma wrote:
On 2016-09-25 05:22, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
It really is impossible for us to follow all the (in many cases
contradictory) advice we have been given re the initial contributors
list.
Hi GeertJan,
I've gone through this whole thread again and IMO there really isn't so
much
contradictory advice :-)
The general advice really is, including from the NetBeans Champion and
other
mentors to not blow up the initial contributor list before the acceptance
of the project.
The argument Roman Shaposhnik brought forward about a past case where he
had to
deal with a single individual who felt left out, IMO is/was just a single
case.
Relevant for sure, but AFAIK also very uncommon and more like a one-off
case.
The other, and very valid, point brought from Roman was that it should be
made
very clear what criteria was used to select the initial committer list.
Further down I'll provide *my view* on what that criteria is or should be.
But I'll start with disagreeing with the second part of his point, that
(quote):
"IT MUST BE THE SAME for when somebody comes-a-knocking".
Disagreeing with this might seems odd and at odds with how the ASF works,
but I
think it does not, or at least, it will not.
For a project as large and with such a huge history as NetBeans, there is
no
way we (ASF) will be able to *judge* who is rightfully put on that list,
nor
who has been left out erroneously.
Meaning: a 'complete' initial committer list (for such a project) never
can be
put together proper.
Trying to do so, like by going through all the history and enumerating
all past
contributors, IMO is a bad idea and will make things worse and more
unclear,
even more 'unfair'.
And such a list will most certainly NOT be proper from an ASF POV, in the
sense
that we strive for a healthy and active committers and (P)PPMC list of
people
seriously engaged NOW. Project members who actually "do" stuff (doers
decide).
Past contributors who do want to re-engage again most certainly need to be
valued and be admitted to become committer, but IMO better do this *when*
they
come knocking (actively) than enlisting them upfront.
Having to 'prune' a huge, and likely too huge, list of initial committers
before NetBeans graduates to TLP is going to be far more 'painful' than
voting
in active contributors when they actively show up.
Which also is far more in line with "the Apache Way", more 'fair' so to
say.
Coming back to the maybe odd POV that the selection criteria for initial
commmitters list does not have to be the same as that for future
committers.
IMO it simply cannot be 'equal' for a project like NetBeans.
The primary role and responsibility for such initial committers is to get
the
project rolling and admit new committers base on *their* judgement.
So the most important, and IMO only crucial, criteria for selecting the
initial
committers list is that those people are trusted to "do this right".
And important for the community to realise: the IPMC and the assigned
mentors are there to help them to do this right!
They can and will vote in new committers as soon as they come knocking,
based
on their past contribution *and* their (intended) active participation.
Based on merit for the *new* Apache NetBeans project, not (just) their
past
contributions, no matter how small/large that might have been.
And for that reason, an initial committers list must be fairly sized, with
enough diversity, spread out interest, and with recognition and be
trusted by
the NetBeans community. And then: stop there.
The initially proposed committers list IMO already was 'good enough'
for this purpose. And AFAICT nobody questioned the list to be unfair or
not
'good enough'. Of course adding one or two extra who were overlooked and
are
expected to help make a difference and speed up the process still is fine.
So my strong advise is to stick to the original list.
And to first discuss it with the Bertrand as Champion and the other
mentors
before modifying the proposal further.
Just to make sure: I'm not objecting against the proposal changes you made
so far to further clarify initial committers affiliations.
But (bold) marking people out who have provided code contribution in the
past
IMO isn't and shouldn't be seen as a single or even most important
criteria.
As mentioned before all forms of participation and contributions are valued
within the ASF, and not all committers are required to commit :-)
Ate
Kind regards, Ate
Here's what I propose:
1. We make the initial contributors list as detailed as we can, i.e., I
have already started doing this, grouping individual contributors in
specific categories and also indicating which ones have contributed in
the
past, in most cases the recent past, i.e., these are the ones with most
direct skills who are likely to begin contributing as soon as possible.
Yes, most of these are from Oracle, which makes sense since we're moving
to
Apache precisely in order to open up the governance model so that more
can
participate.
2. When in doubt, we will follow the advice of our mentors over the
advice
of those who are not our mentors.
3. We will show in the initial contributors list what each of the initial
contributors is planning to contribute, as concretely as possible, to
show
that we have a list of contributors who really want to and are planning
to
contribute as soon as they're able to do so.
4. I don't believe anyone will fork NetBeans for not being on the initial
contributors list nor do I believe that anyone will want to be on the
initial contributors list as some kind of desire for status -- everyone
on
the list is known in one way or another in the community or has worked on
NetBeans for years from within Oracle. These are all people who are
committed to NetBeans and to its future in Apache.
5. At the end of incubation, we will go through the list very thoroughly.
Anyone who has not contributed will be contacted to confirm that they'd
like to be removed from the list before we become a TPL. I see no
problems
in that regard, I'm sure people who don't end up committing will have no
problem being removed from the list at that stage and being voted in
again
if/when they change their mind later.
Hope the above works for everyone and thanks everyone for all the energy
everyone is putting into this process.
Thanks,
Geertjan
On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 3:47 AM, Shane Curcuru <a...@shanecurcuru.org>
wrote:
toki wrote on 9/24/16 8:04 PM:
On 22/09/2016 05:18, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
had a non-trivial amount of commits to then Sun NetBeans between
2002-2008. He then drifted away from the
project but would be interested, potentially, re-engaging.
Is it possible to create a "master list' of everybody who has
contributed, when they contributed, and roughly how much they
contributed?
If so, then:
* send everybody on that list an ICLA to fill out and return;
* Include that list as an appendix to the Incubation Paperwork. Call it
_Individuals who, on request will be considered to be part of the
Initial Committer List_, once the appropriate paperwork has been signed
and submitted;
* The _Initial Committer List_ consists of people who have signed and
submitted the appropriate paperwork, and requested to be on the list;
My advice is to leave the initial committer list as-is, and then wait to
see who actually shows up to do work on the project during the
incubation process.
Part of what the IPMC looks for during incubation is can the podling
community self-govern, a large part of which is voting in new committers
in an appropriate fashion.
Separately, when a podling is ready to graduate, and the IPMC votes to
recommend graduation to the board, the actual committer and PMC lists
for the top level project sometimes change versus the whole committer
list during incubation. People who never show up to actually work on
the podling probably should not be left on the committer list for the
future top level project.
- Shane
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