Hi Woonsan, Yes, for the user@ list. At least up to a point where inline translation is working well and common. :)
Thanks, Gunnar On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Woonsan Ko <woon...@apache.org> wrote: > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Copy/paste into a Translator, which detected the language automatically: > In > > practice, the question of the language to use from a list of diffusion is > > specious. English it the lingua franca of the 21st century. > > > > Du kan göra precis samma sak med ett minoritetsspråk som svenska. Språk > är > > inte längre ett hinder. > > > > Take a look at how the Minecraft generation (I'm blessed with one) > > operates. They have no issues to jump onto servers that use languages > they > > don't understand and then communicate using Translators. It's pretty > > awesome. Real-time translators are coming. See Skype Translator for an > > example. > > > > So, I'd argue that lingua franca is already becoming a thing of the past > as > > people get more comfortable with the idea of using them in everyday life. > > Heck, just take a look at how people interact on Facebook these days -- > the > > translate function is extremely cool. > > > > You can view language as a barrier to community building or you can use > > technology to remove the barrier. > > > > Based on this discussion, I am going to add a new section to the main > > project page that discusses communication in different languages > > encouraging people to write questions in the own language if they're not > > comfortable with English -- I rather have the question than no > interaction. > > > > I'll tell them that the community uses translator software when needed > and > > that responses is likely to be in English so that they can translate back > > as needed. A smalll first step but an important one. > > I guess you mean that in the user@ lists. That should be fine in my > understanding from the discussions here and there. > But as Shane and others pointed out, dev@ lists should be using > English or Globish-like for good reasons. I would encourage committers > to do so. > > Just my two cents, > > Woonsan > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Gunnar > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <elecha...@gmail.com > > > > wrote: > > > >> En pratique, la question de la langue à utiliser sur une liste de > >> diffusion est spécieuse. L'anglais est la Lingua Franca du 21ème siècle. > >> > >> > >> And if you haven't understood what I wrote in my native language, which > >> is understood by around 500 million people around the globe, I guess you > >> get my implicit point ;-) > >> > >> > >> More seriously, it's not about how good are developpers in english : > >> many of the Apache developpers are not english native speakers, and we > >> do many mistakes. That does not matter too much : nobody will blame > >> anyone for that. At some point, code is not in english, but in C, Java, > >> Scala, etc... If you work as an IT person, you already have to face > >> english in almost all the technical documents found on internet. Take > >> the RFCs for instance : have thay all been translated to chinese ? > >> > >> > >> But the most important thing : we are all about community. It's pretty > >> hard to build it if you split it in 2, or more, because there is a > >> language issue. It's going to be hard to communicate between a split > >> community, way harder than using a very basic english... > >> > >> > >> > >> Le 11/11/16 à 07:45, Reynold Xin a écrit : > >> > Adding members@ > >> > > >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist > >> >> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it > >> >> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in > >> >> English? > >> >> > >> >> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as > >> English > >> >> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software > >> >> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency > when > >> it > >> >> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much > >> lower > >> >> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn > >> English > >> >> as for English speakers to learn Chinese. > >> >> > >> >> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also > >> exclude > >> >> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of > >> native > >> >> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 > >> according > >> >> to Wikipedia. > >> >> > >> >> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries, > >> >> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <luke...@apache.org> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> Hi Gunnar, > >> >>> > >> >>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe > not > >> >>> real, > >> >>> but just > >> >>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions > from > >> >>> China, > >> >>> or any other territories from all of the world. > >> >>> > >> >>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and > >> LABEL > >> >>> for such > >> >>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of > >> "issue" to > >> >>> describe like > >> >>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or > >> >>> others... > >> >>> that's not right way. > >> >>> > >> >>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are > >> >>> contributing to > >> >>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much, > >> >>> involved > >> >>> in many > >> >>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply. > >> >>> > >> >>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days > >> >>> mailing > >> >>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]: > >> >>> > >> >>> Project | Emails | Topics | Participants > >> >>> HBase | 610 | 406 | 100 > >> >>> Spark | 412 | 88 | 124 > >> >>> Kylin | 294 | 144 | 61 > >> >>> CarbonData | 852 | 250 | 116 > >> >>> HAWQ | 284 | 109 | 57 > >> >>> Trafodion | 87 | 20 | 25 > >> >>> > >> >>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, > you > >> >>> could check > >> >>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing > list. > >> >>> > >> >>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a > way to > >> >>> access > >> >>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English > >> speakers, > >> >>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache > >> Way. > >> >>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global > >> >>> community, and try > >> >>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the > >> patience > >> >>> for > >> >>> those new comers. > >> >>> > >> >>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our > >> journey, > >> >>> our experience > >> >>> about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such > >> >>> challenges...through > >> >>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping > >> many > >> >>> potential projects > >> >>> who are interesting to join Apache family. > >> >>> > >> >>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help > >> >>> Trafodion > >> >>> community" > >> >>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does > Trafodion > >> >>> PMC > >> >>> know > >> >>> this concern?) I'm very happy to help...share with you many > articles, > >> >>> session recordings and > >> >>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face > >> >>> discussion > >> >>> if necessary:-) > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org> > >> >>> > >> >>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper < > >> tapper.gun...@gmail.com> > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> Hi, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution > >> from > >> >>>> China. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that > >> >>> active > >> >>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in > >> >>>> Chinese. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard > not > >> to > >> >>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage > questions > >> etc > >> >>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving > forward, > >> >>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members > in > >> >>> China > >> >>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues > >> like > >> >>>> this. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Thanks, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Gunnar > >> >>>> > >> >>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" < > ross.gard...@microsoft.com> > >> >>>> wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of > >> >>> years > >> >>>> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open > source > >> >>> beyond > >> >>>> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding > trip > >> to > >> >>>> China. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked > to. > >> We > >> >>>> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been > involved > >> >>> with > >> >>>> this proposal. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project > and > >> >>>> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We > will > >> >>> need > >> >>>> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China > born > >> >>>> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we > need > >> >>> to > >> >>>> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a > foundation > >> >>> and as > >> >>>> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met > >> some > >> >>> of > >> >>>> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the > >> >>> project > >> >>>> can succeed. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Ross > >> >>>> > >> >>>> --- > >> >>>> Twitter: @rgardler > >> >>>> > >> >>>> ________________________________ > >> >>>> From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.sny...@gmail.com> > >> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM > >> >>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org > >> >>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Hi John, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for > >> constructive > >> >>>> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and > project > >> >>> using > >> >>>> your suggestions. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von > >> Gosling, > >> >>>> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the > Github > >> >>>> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the > >> history > >> >>>> was > >> >>>> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's > git-fu > >> >>> went > >> >>>> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von > also > >> >>> gives > >> >>>> further explanation of the project history in a response below. > >> Indeed, > >> >>>> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before > with > >> >>> git), > >> >>>> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to > improve > >> >>> and > >> >>>> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since > >> >>> Bruce is > >> >>>> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF > exist > >> >>>> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good > >> mentors, > >> >>>> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My > interest > >> in > >> >>>> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in > >> >>> continuing > >> >>>> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years > >> >>> experience > >> >>>> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project > over > >> >>>> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate > >> >>>> constructively with others on open source and to foster a > community of > >> >>>> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF > is > >> an > >> >>>> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new > >> >>>> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and > stay > >> for > >> >>>> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project > >> and > >> >>>> people to the ASF. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good > >> >>> suggestions > >> >>>> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the > proposal. > >> >>> Even > >> >>>> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be > great > >> >>>> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving > >> >>> forward. > >> >>>> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you > >> >>> mentioned > >> >>>> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the > RocketMQ > >> >>> code > >> >>>> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John > with > >> >>> his > >> >>>> thoughts: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two > >> questions > >> >>>> specifically: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ > >> communities > >> >>> to > >> >>>> build cross platform clients? > >> >>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as > backend > >> >>>> persistence stores? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Bruce > >> >>>> > >> >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament < > john.d.am...@gmail.com > >> > > >> >>>> wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik < > >> ro...@shaposhnik.org > >> >>>>> wrote: > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned > >> >>> about: > >> >>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > >> >>>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs% > >> >>>> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com% > >> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 > >> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5% > >> >>>> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0 > >> >>>>>> It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of > >> >>>>>> code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial > committers > >> >>>>>> is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time > >> >>>>>> making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement: > >> >>>>>> "The source code was opened up in 2012." > >> >>>>>> with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing? > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well. I > >> >>>> suspect > >> >>>>> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on > the > >> >>>>> product and it was kept internal. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache > >> >>> products" > >> >>>>> section still. I'm not interested in seeing how a podling > competes > >> >>> with > >> >>>>> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the > chair of > >> >>> one > >> >>>>> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies > with > >> >>> the > >> >>>>> other components. I raised that they're using ASF projects today > in > >> >>>> their > >> >>>>> code base. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Some other ways to address this section: > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ > >> >>> communities > >> >>>> to > >> >>>>> build cross platform clients? > >> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as > >> backend > >> >>>>> persistence stores? > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> etc.. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> Thanks, > >> >>>>>> Roman. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister < > >> >>> bri...@skife.org> > >> >>>>>> wrote: > >> >>>>>>> +1 ! > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com> > >> >>>> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>> Cool. > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> +1 > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder < > >> >>> bruce.sny...@gmail.com> > >> >>>>>> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>> Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named > >> >>>>> Apache > >> >>>>>>>>> RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, > distributed, > >> >>>> easy > >> >>>>>> to > >> >>>>>>>> use > >> >>>>>>>>> message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large > >> >>>> amounts > >> >>>>>> of > >> >>>>>>>>> streaming data. > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following > >> >>> URL: > >> >>>>>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% > >> >>> 2F% > >> >>>> 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02% > >> >>>> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597 > >> dcff% > >> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0% > >> 7C636139597197176036&sdata= > >> >>>> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0 > >> >>>>>>>>> Below, please find the text for the proposal below. > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Bruce > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >>>> --------- > >> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator. > apache.org > >> >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache. > >> >>> org > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >>> --------- > >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache. > org > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> -- > >> >>>> perl -e 'print > >> >>>> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\ > "YC;VT*" > >> >>> );' > >> >>>> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks. > >> protection.outlook.com/?url= > >> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m > >> >>> icrosoft.com% > >> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 > >> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6% > >> >>>> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0 > >> >>>> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > >> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40 > >> microsoft.com > >> >>> % > >> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 > >> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ% > >> >>>> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks. > >> >>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& > >> >>>> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c > >> >>> 6e60c908d40597 > >> >>>> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0% > >> >>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata= > >> >>>> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0> > >> >>>> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > >> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01% > >> >>>> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff% > >> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0% > >> 7C636139597197176036&sdata= > >> >>>> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0 > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> > >> -- > >> Emmanuel Lecharny > >> > >> Symas.com > >> directory.apache.org > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Thanks, > > > > Gunnar > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.* > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > -- Thanks, Gunnar *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
