"suspicious of" to strong a word - "wary of" ! On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 7:16 AM, Damo Brisbane <dhatche...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As a relative newbie I wonder about the format generally of the lists, > however "unbroken", I would be concerned about a dated look. Also, IMO > anything requiring "manual restructuring" - verses automation - I am a > little suspicious of. If dumb stuff is coming through, why cant the good > stuff be automatically curated and presented on top of existing lists? ie > run a PoC, curated content targeting mobile users. From there drivers may > emerge for incorporating updates or come back to suggestions herein. > > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 9:18 AM, Michał Górny <mgo...@gentoo.org> wrote: > >> Hello, everyone. >> >> This is something that's been talked about privately a lot lately but it >> seems that nobody went forward to put things into motion. SO here's >> a proposal that aims to improve the condition of our mailing lists >> and solve some of the problems they are facing today. >> >> >> Problems >> ======== >> >> Currently the developer-oriented mailing lists gentoo-dev and gentoo- >> project are open to posting by everyone. While this has been generally >> beneficial, we seem to be having major problems with some >> of the posters for more than a year. Off hand, I can think of three: >> >> 1. Repeating attacks against Gentoo and/or Gentoo developers (including >> pure personal attacks). While it is understandable that some people may >> be frustrated and need to vent off, repeating attacks from the same >> person are seriously demotivating to everyone. >> >> 2. Frequent off-topics, often irrelevant to the thread at hand. >> I understand that some of those topics are really interesting but it is >> really time-consuming to filter through all the off-topic mails >> in search of data relevant to the topic at hand. What's worst, sometimes >> you don't even get a single on-topic reply. >> >> 3. Support requests. Some of our 'expert users' have been abusing >> the mailing lists to request support (because it's easier to ask >> everyone than go through proper channels) and/or complain about bug >> resolutions. This is a minor issue but still it is one. >> >> >> All of those issues are slowly rendering the mailing lists impossible to >> use. People waste a lot of time trying to gather feedback, and get >> demotivated in the process. A steadily growing number of developers >> either stop reading the mailing lists altogether, or reduce their >> activity. >> >> For example, eclass reviews usually don't get more than one reply, >> and even that is not always on-topic. And after all, getting this kind >> of feedback is one of the purposes of the -dev mailing list! >> >> >> Proposal >> ======== >> >> Give the failure of other solutions tried for this, I'd like to >> establish the following changes to the mailing lists: >> >> 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be >> initially restricted to active Gentoo developers. >> >> 1a. Subscription (reading) and archives will still be open. >> >> 1b. Active Gentoo contributors will be able to obtain posting access >> upon being vouched for by an active Gentoo developer. >> >> 2. A new mailing list 'gentoo-expert' will be formed to provide >> a discussion medium for expert Gentoo users and developers. >> >> 2a. gentoo-expert will have open posting access like gentoo-dev has now. >> >> >> Rationale >> ========= >> >> I expect that some of you will find this a drastic measure. However, I >> would like to point out that I believe we've already exhausted all other >> options to no avail. >> >> The problems of more abusive behavior from some of the mailing list >> members have been reported to ComRel numerous times. After the failure >> of initial enforcement, I'm not aware of ComRel doing anything to solve >> the problem. The main arguments I've heard from ComRel members were: >> >> A. Bans can be trivially evaded, and history proves that those evasions >> create more noise than leaving the issue as is. >> >> B. People should be allowed to express their opinion [even if it's pure >> hate speech that carries no value to anyone]. >> >> C. The replies of Gentoo developers were worse [no surprise that people >> lose their patience after being attacked for a few months]. >> >> >> The alternative suggested by ComRel pretty much boiled down to 'ignore >> the trolls'. While we can see this is actually starting to happen right >> now (even the most determined developers stopped replying), this doesn't >> really solve the problem because: >> >> I. Some people are really determined and continue sending mails even if >> nobody replies to them. In fact, they are perfectly capable of replying >> to themselves. >> >> II. This practically assumes that every new mailing list subscriber will >> be able to recognize the problem. Otherwise, new people will repeatedly >> be lured into discussing with them. >> >> III. In the end, it puts Gentoo in a bad position. Firstly, because it >> silently consents to misbehavior on the mailing lists. Secondly, because >> the lack of any statement in reply to accusations could be seen >> as a sign of shameful silent admittance. >> >> >> Yet another alternative that was proposed was to establish moderation of >> the mailing lists. However, Infrastructure has replied already that we >> can't deploy effective moderation with the current mailing list software >> and I'm not aware of anyone willing to undergo all the necessary work to >> change that. >> >> Even if we were able to overcome that and be able to find a good >> moderation team that can effectively and fairly moderate e-mails without >> causing huge delays, moderation has a number of own problems: >> >> α) the delays will make discussions more cumbersome, and render posting >> confusing to users, >> >> β) they will implicitly cause some overlap of replies (e.g. when N >> different people answer the same question because they don't see earlier >> replies until they're past moderation), >> >> γ) the problem will be solved only partially -- what if a reply contains >> both valuable info and personal attack? >> >> >> Seeing that no other effort so far has succeeded in solving the problem, >> splitting the mailing lists seems the best solution so far. Most >> notably: >> >> а. Developer mailing lists are restored to their original purpose. >> >> б. It is 'fair'. Unlike with disciplinary actions, there is no judgment >> problem, just a clear split between 'developers' and 'non-developers'. >> >> в. 'Expert users' are still provided with a mailing list where they can >> discuss Gentoo without being pushed down into 'user support' channels. >> >> г. Active contributors (in particular recruits) can still obtain posting >> access to the mailing lists, much like they do obtain it to #gentoo-dev >> right now. However, if they start misbehaving we can just remove that >> without the risk of evasion. >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Michał Górny >> >> >> >
