On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote:On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:01:22 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann<volkerar...@googlemail.com> wrote: > On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote:>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick <n...@digimed.co.uk>>> >> wrote: >> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: >> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't>> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems>> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. >> > >> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, >> >> KMail >>>> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE,>> >> not >>>> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are>> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. >> >> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. >> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things >> that>> aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is>> this the correct term?) dependencies. >> Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an >> optional>> dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all >> the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I>> understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon >> probably>> Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they>> feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) >> >> In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some >> don't >> mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to>> disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't >> consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's >> an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not>> using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus >> becomes >> bloat. >> and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does> not> force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma- > desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing> manager .... But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a softdependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to(I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have symantic-desktop as a hard dependency.yes it is a good idea. Because KDE is such a modular beast you can not justinstall kmail, konqueror or kate. You always need a bit more for fullfunctionality. KDE strives to be a COMPLETE, networking, work and data sharingaware desktop solution. Semantic-Desktop is a huge part of it. If you never used nepomuk, you don't even know what you are missing.
I have tried it, briefly so I won't claim to know all the merits, but it didn't seem to be a huge addition to my life. To each his own however :-) I don't know, I just considered flexibility and as much being as far independent of anything that isn't strictly related to the core functions of the application. But again, this is just my take, and the entire development with KDE is interesting to follow and I'll surely be following this development with a great interest.
And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but mainly in considerations to when you're using another window manager.you can use whatever WM you want in KDE. Isn't that nice.Beit icewm, jwm, openbox or whatever. Should something that is an integrated part of the KDE desktop environment be forced on those that don't use KDE?what are you even talking about?
Well what I mean is that Semantic-desktop is a part of the KDE DE, right? So anyone not using the fullblown DE, but simply a few apps is being forced to install semantic-desktop with various KDE apps. And sure you can use whatever WM in KDE, but that was never really the point, at least not how I intended it, pardons if I was too vague about it. My point was if you only run a window manager and not any DE at all.
Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple reason Ifind it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they'rebeing forced. And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how itwas done, is pretty much as nonconstructive argument as "dbus is bad because it's new". I'd like to find out why you seem to disagree, so please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I am asking for it after all ;))no, I have the feeling that you are trolling.
Oh, well I'm very sorry that you get that impression, I am actually quite interested in some arguments for why you consider it to be okay (which are being provided throughout your post :-)). But I very much apologise for the misunderstanding. (It would hardly be good sport to start trolling when I sent out a mail a few hours ago, asking to keep cheekiness to a bare minimum :-) )
But see above. KDE goals is more than just a wm with some apps. That niche is filled by XFCE. And for being more than just a wm plus an asorted pile of apps,you need a certain infrastructure shared by the whole environment. KDE apps use PHONON, so they don't have to deal with the underlying sound system.KDE apps use SOLID, so they don't need to care about hardware, hot plugin,etc. KDE apps use dbus so they can share code and easily communicate.KDE apps use NEPOMUK, so they don't need to fiddle with different databases and concepts when working with information. And 'semanitic-desktop' is more thanjust finding a certain picture, textfile, email or link quickly.
Would you care to expand on this? Because I pretty much had the semantic-desktop thing down to being finding something certain quickly :-)
When you are displaying a html email, Kmail uses the khtml kpart. Why don'tyou cry about that dependency? Who uses html mails anyway?
Plenty of newsletters do, Star wars newsletter, splitreason newsletter, and I believe sony psp newsletter as well just to name a few, so no I don't complain about it in the least. It's still very much used.
You might have missed the memo. But today information is more compley than keeping a tidy tree of directories. And finding information is harder withgigabytes of data than a couple of floppy disks.
Yes, it is harder to find and keep track of files amongst x-hundred GB of data, the way I see it though, a logical directory tree can help with that.
Semantic-desktop can help you with that. A lot. Your calender tells you, thatthere is a meeting tomorrow where SUBJECT A is on the agenda. A semanticdesktop aware environment can give you all files concerned with SUBJECT A. All pictures, all texts, presentations, emails and bookmarks. in a split second.http://nepomuk.kde.org/discover/user
Well I'll hand it to you, that is smart. I would argue that much of the same thing could be accomplished with a logical directory tree, but there are some things that can't obviously. :-)
-- Zeerak
