Hello Andrew, The fraction of the total energy of a hurricane that is electrical is very small when it is fully developed, and utterly miniscule when it is "tiny wee". So what would zapping achieve?
Zapping an embryonic hurricane would be no more effectual than a small child in a tantrum - because he's swallowed salty water - spanking the Pacific Ocean with his spade to flatten the waves. If you dont believe me, seek out papers by lightning experts such as Phil Krider, Hugh Christian, Paul Krehbeil, Marx Brook, Earle Williams, Clive Saunders, Martin Uman, Walt Petersen, Pierre Laroche, Don Macgorman, Jim Dye, etc, etc I think it's a good thing to throw novel and unorthodox ideas into the ring, and long may you continue doing so. But one has also to be prepared to throw them out from time to time. Sometimes, unfortunately, it's necessary to contaminate an elegant idea with a modicum of physics. Cheers, John. Quoting Andrew Lockley <andrew.lock...@gmail.com>: > Yep, but only lightening storms become hurricanes. You have to zap them > when they're tiny wee things. > A > > 2009/5/5 John Latham <john.latha...@manchester.ac.uk> > >> Hello Andrew, >> >> The fraction of hurricane energy in the form of lightning is negligible. If >> you could zap the lightning - a very tall order - it would make no >> difference. >> >> Far better to weaken the growth of hurricanes than to take them on when >> fully fledged, in my view. >> >> Cheers, John. >> >> >> >> >> >> Quoting Andrew Lockley <andrew.lock...@gmail.com>: >> >> > There are already various hurricane-busting programmes. Off the top of >> my >> > head, these are: >> > 1) Using lasers to discharge lightening in the precursor storms >> > 2) Burning soot in the outer wall to make it absorb heat and cool down >> > 3) Pouring liquuid N2 onto the surface of the sea >> > >> > Sadly these are not detailed on wikipedia, but you can find a summary at >> > http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/hurricane.html >> > >> > Further discussion of whether these may help reduce AGW would be welcome. >> > >> > A >> > >> > 2009/5/5 Bonnelle Denis <dbonne...@ra.ccomptes.fr> >> > >> >> Dear Andrew, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> First, I think your call for something to be done is not only about >> >> stopping hurricanes (i.e., when they are fully mature - I can't guess >> any >> >> easy way to achieve this), but also preventing them from developing at >> once. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This seems more thinkable. Basically, it means cooling the upper layer >> of >> >> the oceans down, before the beginning of the hurricane season. One >> method >> >> has already been presented to this group, but I had answered that, by >> >> burying the heat deeper into the sea, it would contribute to ocean >> >> dilatation. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If not downwards, one may try to dispose of this heat upwards. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A solution could be derived from that which had been frequently >> advocated >> >> here by F. Maugis: the atmospheric vortex engine (AVE - also developed >> by L. >> >> Michaud, from Canada). I have long been a fierce critic of AVE, which, >> in my >> >> opinion, would be highly unstable as long as a shortcut from high to low >> >> pressures wouldn't be prohibited. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Indeed, prohibiting it provides the solution, which is, finally, as >> >> follows: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1 - moist air, coming from the surface of the ocean, rises (first, it is >> >> either drawn, or pushed, upwards - several initializing options are >> >> possible) through a middle-sized (200 to 300 m high) chimney, which also >> >> contains wind turbines and is shaped so that the flow lines look like >> >> spirals; >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2 - still rising above the chimney, this spiraling air creates some >> >> centrifugal force, so that a region of low pressure develops at its >> centre, >> >> and keeps on attracting new air from the system's bottom; >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3 - moving upwards, i.e. being adiabatically cooled, this moist air >> reaches >> >> the altitude where its vapor content begins to condensate, which >> liberates >> >> latent heat; from now on, its temperature will quite stop diminishing, >> so >> >> that this operating air will soon become warmer than the ambient air, >> and >> >> thus buoyant; >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 4 - our hypothetical central low pressure is now justified in three >> >> respects: from above (1 in the figure hereunder), it is justified by the >> >> condensing moist air buoyancy; from under (3), it is consistent with the >> >> idea that more moist air has to be attracted so that the system should >> keep >> >> on working (and even produce renewable energy by drawing the turbines); >> and >> >> from the outer space at the same altitude (2), it is justified by the >> >> cumulative effect of the centrifugal force; >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 5 - However, there remains a problem along the (4) path: the low >> pressure >> >> at the chimney exit is jeopardized by the high pressure just before the >> air >> >> goes through the turbine, and the whole air system can be destabilized >> by >> >> some Kelvin-Helmholtz instability; >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 6 - Hence, we must bar this path. The solution is to add a horizontal >> >> annulus around the chimney's top, with radii ranging from R to around >> 2.5 R. >> >> This annulus can be filled with buoyant gases, and, anyway, it will face >> >> much less winds than if the same material were raised vertically in >> order to >> >> create a greater "chimney effect"; >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 7 - Indeed, this is our real purpose: using, like in a real hurricane, >> the >> >> air's centrifugal force, as a material wall which isolates the inner low >> >> pressures from the outer high ones. Thanks to friction, air rotation >> >> develops not only inside the first cylinder (black flow lines in the >> >> figure), but also outside it (grey lines), which enhances the total >> >> centrifugal contribution to the central low pressures. So, we have a >> virtual >> >> chimney effect, which, when the 1 to 6 stages are completed, will >> undergo a >> >> positive feedback (from energy budgets, this feedback requires that the >> >> annulus radii, as a minimum, range from R to 2R, that's why I had >> written >> >> previously: "from R to around 2.5 R"). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 8 - When this positive feedback begins to operate, the structured air >> >> motion can develop, like a natural hurricane, until this "virtual >> chimney" >> >> reaches the tropopause, which is a real achievement as we had begun with >> a >> >> solid chimney only 200m - 300m tall, and its annulus which is not much >> >> greater. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 9 - To prevent real hurricanes to develop, such systems can be located >> >> closer to the equator (where Coriolis's force is too small to provide a >> >> natural hurricane with enough angular momentum, which is not a problem >> for >> >> an AVE, as, inside, it is shaped so that the flow lines become spirals), >> >> and, usefully, in the regions where very warm waters are ready to move >> >> towards hurricane regions (i.e., off the northern coast of Brazil, where >> >> Mexico Gulf hurricanes are being prepared). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Any comments, especially doubtful ones, are welcomed. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Denis Bonnelle >> >> >> >> denis.bonne...@normalesup.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *De :* geoengineering@googlegroups.com [mailto: >> >> geoengineer...@googlegroups.com] *De la part de* Andrew Lockley >> >> *Envoyé :* mardi 5 mai 2009 03:16 >> >> *À :* geoengineering >> >> *Objet :* [geo] stopping hurricanes >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This paper >> >> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/04/27/0808914106.abstractsuggests >> >> that hurricanes cause global warming. I suggest that using geo-eng to >> stop >> >> this happening would be socially acceptable, fundable and desirable. >> There >> >> are several promising ideas for doing this, and I'd like to hear views >> on >> >> the implications of this research for the debate on geoeng and the >> practical >> >> implementation of suitable techniques. >> >> >> >> >> >> A >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> -- >> John Latham >> >> lat...@ucar.edu & john.latha...@manchester.ac.uk >> >> Tel. 303-444-2429 (H) & 303-497-8182 (W) >> > -- John Latham lat...@ucar.edu & john.latha...@manchester.ac.uk Tel. 303-444-2429 (H) & 303-497-8182 (W) --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. 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