Le mercredi 6 novembre 2019, 17:01:50 CET Jean Louis a écrit : > * Thompson <Thompson> [2019-11-06 15:37]: > > They have engaged in behavior that ranges from annoying at best to > > hateful at worst on many GNU lists.
> And I was > faced with Ludovic's promotion of public shaming on the Guix mailing > list. > > That was very surprising and disturbing. I could not believe it, as > that was not the GNU I knew, neither was it Guix that I knew. Wow, guix continued to attract new people, and I see it does so really generally, from all horizons. Both younger and maybe less-white-male people, and detractors. > > They spammed multiple Guix lists, cross-posting to many at the same > > time typically, to the point that they were put on moderation there. > > What else do you expect if public shaming is published on the Guix > website? Indeed answering to guix messages that were about the topic seems reasonable. But then it should not be done here while you can discuss that on guix mailing-list (when you cannot, it is different matter). > > The issue goes beyond poor mailing list etiquette, however. While > > they have kept most of the worst of their statements off of GNU > > lists, they host a web page on the domain gnu.support that contains > > hateful comments about a GNU maintainer as well as cherry picked > > sexist, homophobic, and transphobic comments from other places. I > > have also received rude off-list, direct emails from them, and > > others have as well. I think it is beyond time that they are placed > > on moderation here. > Purpose of the gnu.support website is not to initiate any hate, but to > respond with facts and to publish the comments as your public shamings > page explicitly disallowed comments. Anybody may say anything on any personal webpage. Some things are illegal in some countries (racism, hate speech, insults, slander, defamation) but short time and internationality may make that hard to enforce. Now he may quote hateful or sexist speech without supporting it. If you don’t want to see it and you see his website doesn’t applies minimal decency guidelines according you, stop reading it. The web is already full of non- safe and hateful speech, when you know where to find it, as censorship is difficult for it. People have different standards for what is shocking. You’re not obligated to read whatever else concerns the people you are discussing or working with within GNU, since it should welcomes everyone. Kindness standard might apply only within GNU. Posting of links toward such content is a different problem. As of off-list harassing… this is not really a problem possible to solve. Anybody could retrieve mail and harass people… punishing them with measures internal to GNU (such as censorship on GNU lists) won’t impede that, hence seems to be unrelated :/ Internet harassment is a serious problem, hard to solve, and has currently only two solutions: the law (there is international law too, but when it’s international it’s harder…) and filtering. If discussing places you maintain and want kind, become to have their active members target of harassment, either you return to not publishing (or even relaying) anymore mail address of anybody (sad to become unavoidable intermediary :/), either you begin warning everybody transparently and publicly with a message such as “WARNING: active members of these lists have been victims of unwanted hateful harassment from these persons: [mail adress lists, with names]. You’d better filter out these address or even names from your mails. Below instructions to do that with most user-agents used on this list:”. > Dave, it was not my intention to keep gnu.support for "cherry picked > sexist, homophobic, and transphobic comments from other places" -- but > that type of reaction is what you get when you start with public > shamings. Deal with it. Normally you deal with it from the places where these are posted and you happen to be too. That’s a cool feature of internet that makes presence of lot of uncontrolable uncomfortable stuff not making it impossible to live. Relaying these on your website makes the problem harder to deal with, actually. You may keep your effect of showing bad reaction by resuming yourself that hateful and sexist/etc. stuff have been said, along with maybe edited/censored said statements, and if wanting to put that literally anyway, I might suggest to add a modern trending stuff known as “trigger warning” or “content warning” that will warn sensitive people (or any snowflake) that the following might contain stuff they don’t want to read (hate, insults, sexism… etc. you might categorize them explicitly so it’s not an atomic all-in-one and differently sensitive people may still be able to read a part of what you want to relay). > My page is not the only one, there are many pages on Internet, and > many people inside and outside of GNU who disapproved your public > shamings page. Really inside there are fewer. But your page was linked on all the mailing- lists you speaked in. > In the mean time I have made a first step and retracted my statements > that those signers of the public shamings page should resign, but I > did not retract my opinion that it is discouraging contributors to > GNU. OH THANK YOU. We don’t want anybody to resign. Here is excerpt of kindness: everybody is doing amazing technical job. Please keep doing that. Never forget that emotions and personal opinions have little impact on how what your software already is work, and that’s an amazing property of software and computers! You will overcome that, time pass, and in the end, nobody intelligent really want to be mean in the long term ;) > I could promise to provide you with at least 3 female members that > would be translating Guix manual and Guix website into Swahili > language, which has at least 90 million speakers. Don’t make that a conditional thing, that might look like chantage. Rather, doing that *now* might already low-tone stuff, and make yourself more acceptable, showing you’re of good will and can contribute to change stuff in the positive end for the goals of your detractors! More so, you can still notice if such disliked content is removed, you (and others! as shown by you) might be more likely to contribute more longely to such issues, as they understood these are a big problem held in deep concern by some members of GNU ;) > Proposal: > ========= > > 1. Remove public shamings page. > > 2. Instead redirect the page to a new Guix based project to attract > more women in coding and more women to contribute to Guix or GNU > projects. Sample reference: > https://www.meetup.com/Women-Who-Code-Tokyo/events/253653211/ > > 3. I will personally make sure that Guix gets at least 3 female > translators to translate Guix website into Swahili and Guix manual > into Swahili language which opens the door to 90 millions of > people. > > 4. I will remove the page that you complain about. > > Is that a fair proposal? 1+4 maybe, but find some middle-ground for hateful speech. 2-3 could help, and would better not been delayed.
