========Peter Chubb
===========
drarn> A cogent example of this is the `problem` of having a slur
and
drarn> a tie originate at the same point. A slur and a tie can't
drarn> originate from the same note. It is a *logical*
drarn> impossibility. Either the next note is tied or it is [not]
Of course they can, depending on the meaning of the slur
indication.
-----------
Please. It is perfectly clear that I said "slur" not "slur
indication". Slur is the third item in your own formulation,
which I have built on--
============
The problem is that the same symbol (a curved line) has so many
different meanings:
1.) a tie (extend the starting note to the end of the
next note
at the same pitch)
2.) a portamento (no articulation between this note and
the
next note; `slide' all the notes in between)
----I'm sorry but this does not adequately define a portamento.
In guitar music, there are usually *some*, not all, of the notes
between. (I know you meant pitches, not notes, but I mean notes.)
If there are all the notes between, it is likely to be a
glissando, for instrumental effect, rather than a portamento, for
vocal expression. Also, in a portamento, the 2nd note is
articulated. If it is not articulated, it is a slur instead. The
traditional way of indicating a portamento in guitar music is
with an anticipation (a grace note of the same pitch) which has
curved lines on the left and right of it, and this indicates that
the third note is articulated although it is arrived at with
sliding (portamento).
3.) a slur (almost no articulation between two notes, but
notes
sounded distinctly with no notes in between)
-----In guitar music, the slur is normally done either by a left
hand pizzicato or a slide, so the second note is articulated, but
the articulation is quite different, according to how the note is
produced. It may be struck by the left hand finger if ascending,
plucked by the left hand finger if descending, or slid. If it is
a harmonic, it may be produced by merely touching a string
already played. Another possibility is to make a slur by
releasing the end of the string from the pressure of the heel of
the hand, which produces a slur of *the same pitch*, which,
because the sound changes, is not a tie! (The second note
actually seems louder than the first. I play one of these in a
Gershwin arrangement, but I have no idea how I would write it. If
I compose something that uses that effect, I'll have to
though.:-)
4.) a syllable marking (all the notes under the line to
be sung
to the same syllable; a melisma)
-----Permit me to observe that, if all the notes be on the same
syllable, a vocalist does not need this mark at all, since he has
the lyrics.
5.) a phrase mark (the notes under the line are connected
in
some way, maybe because they set a single line of
a
text)
-----Pianists apparently are in the habit of calling phrase marks
slurs. Perhaps it is because a piano is utterly incapable of
producing a slur, and the only way that it can even imitate one
is to go from forte to piano in such a way that the second note
or chord is attacked at the same level that the first has decayed
to. There are better ways of indicating this than a slur. For
whatever reason, the buyers of piano scores liked to see them
festooned with lots of totally meaningless phrase marks. It would
be helpful if some effort were made to make a distinction between
phrase marks and slurs and to stop muddying the clear difference
between them, which ought to be reflected in their being written
differently. Slurs should not snap anywhere. Phrase marks should
be out of the way. Slurs should be as close as possible to the
head of the note and slide up the stem as necessary to prevent
too much curvature. Phrase marks should originate above or below
the notes they span and equidistant from the heads, even if well
above or below the stem ends, so they can have a graceful curve
no matter how much stuff is in between. And a phrase mark can
span slurs as well as ties. There are several examples in HVL,
although guitar music generally has few phrase marks.
==========
Any or all of these could start or end at the same point. Your
logical impossibility is for a tie and a slur to start at the
same
point, and end at the same (different) point. The second note of
a
tie can still be part of the same phrase as the first note of a
tie.
--------- but a phrase is not a slur! And every note in a
multiple slur is individually slurred. I stand by my original
contention, which you have utterly failed to refute, and I thank
you much for helping me with this. You have saved me a lot of
time.:-)
6.) For some reason you left out the line which
indicates to which note a grace note refers. It is utter nonsense
to consider this to indicate a slur. The grace note *always*
indicates a slur, and it does not need the line. The line's only
function, other than indicating the less usual case where a grace
note takes its time from the note preceding, is to direct one's
eye to the grace note so that it won't be overlooked. Look at
some music with grace notes without these lines and you will see
that this is a valid purpose. In the Debussy example provided
with chromatic notation a while ago, there are grace notes of 3
note chords, but only one line. If they were slurs, there would
necessarily be 3 lines, not one. If you have a contrary opinion,
that would be because you play an instrument which does not
require that you do something different to produce a slur. One
slur mark is not sufficient to indicate more than one
(simultaneous) slur, to anyone who plays the slurs differently
from the other notes. The other phrase marks are simply parasitic
decoration, merely demonstrating the vile taste of the original
producer, or perhaps the execrable taste of the public to which
he was pandering. :-)
Also in the Debussy is a note with the stem extended to the
centerline. That looks quaint and it is harder to read, and if
you have ever seen any old music with stems 3 and 4 octaves long
you would see that no practice better deserved permanent
oblivion.
But the worst thing is that there is no tuplet bracket. That
piece of engraving is crap on that account alone. Somebody who
did that for me would be fired fired fired....
--
Peace, understanding, health and happiness to all beings!
U U u ^^ ` 'U u U ''`'`
_-__o|oO|o-_|o_o_-_MN[-->mm@_-_--___o|o|oU_|o_o__lilypond
dave N Va USA David Raleigh Arnold [EMAIL PROTECTED]
