Nuno
You exaggerated by attributing the term “hate Portugal” to Pedro,
since nowhere in his texts did I find this proof. The Forum is for
discussing opinions and not for attacking others. Whoever has no
arguments offends others. I know some old people feel insignificant
since the loss of the empire.
The payment of compensation to former colonies is a source of
disagreement among historians and activists — despite some having
already been carried out by Portugal. But the return of works of art
is less controversial. The return of cultural works and objects looted
by colonizing countries has been repeated over the years in countries
such as France, Germany, Switzerland or the Netherlands (even the
United Kingdom has already begun to return looted objects, after
removing the idea).
These are the most developed societies, especially France led by Macron.
Regards
Alberto.
----- Mensagem de 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net
<goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> ---------
Data: Sun, 5 May 2024 19:10:08 +0200
De: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net
<goa-research-net@googlegroups.com>
Assunto: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the
president of Portugal
Para: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com
Pedro,
You hate too much Portugal and the Portuguese to be a reliable
source of information or a fair analyst of the Portuguese actions.
We did enough bad things throughout our history not to need your
fairytales to pass judgement on us. When I was teaching at the
university, in Lisbon, one of my colleague professors was a black
Angolan who had been a top cadre of UNITA and had been sent to the
São Nicolau camp. I once asked him about his experience there and he
told me he had never been tortured or mistreated, although
conditions were rough. I have no doubt torture was used under
certain circumstances, but people who were already convicted of
deeds against the security of the state, and were already in prison,
had no reason to be further interrogated and tortured. The idea was
to keep them away and prevent them from continuing fighting against
Portuguese rule. As to PIDE, they organized counter terrorism units
made up of former guerrilleros in Angola and Mozambique, the so
called Flechas. I doubt they would have been able to recruit as many
guerrillas as they did if they had systematically tortured their
prisoners. Yes, torture was used but not as indiscriminately as you
suggest. Which doesn't make PIDE a better organization. They were
the violent tools of repression and must be condemned by all of us.
But we have nothing to gain by trying to make them more brutal and
murderous than they already were. Violence, torture and repression
have been the tools of many states, some of them supposedly
democratic. Like the actions of the UK on Northern Ireland against
IRA. Or US actions in Iraq. Or French actions in Algeria. We are
unfortunately a murderous species...
Best regards
Nuno
SENT: Sunday, May 05, 2024 at 3:10 PM
FROM: "'Pedro Mascarenhas' via Goa-Research-Net"
<goa-research-net@googlegroups.com>
TO: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com" <goa-research-net@googlegroups.com>
SUBJECT: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the
president of Portugal
Quoting Hemingway's story about the fisherman and the huge fish that
were nothing more than bones when they were brought ashore. The big
fish were the colonies and the fisherman is Salazar. It's not worth
whitewashing the true story.
The most important thing is that Africa expelled the racists.
We are not talking about the Portuguese people who on April 25, 2024
took to the streets to express the joy of democracy.
See the video : https://ensina.rtp.pt/artigo/os-carceres-do-imperio/
Although little documented, the history of the activities of the
Portuguese Portuguese police (PIDE) in the colonies, during the
Estado Novo, takes us to a world of atrocities committed before, but
especially after the start of the colonial war. A vast network of
jails and work camps were merciless prisons for thousands who
opposed the regime and their representatives were never punished.
In 1961, with the start of the war in Angola, the PIDE
(International and State Defense Police) created its own
delegations, sub-delegations, posts, mobile brigades and militias
overseas. Contrary to what was happening in Portugal, in Africa the
agents were well regarded and considered as allies by the racist.
The objective was to persecute the nationalists and, to this end,
they had a vast system of prisons and work camps, which were nothing
more than concentration camps.
Tarrafal, on the Cape Verdean island of Santiago, is perhaps the
best-known prison in the colonies. From 1962 onwards, it opened its
doors again to house mainly prisoners linked to the struggles for
self-determination, such as Luandino Vieira or Justino Pinto de
Andrade.
But the great atrocities of political jailers extended to other
colonies. Cases such as the Machava prison, in the Mozambican
capital, which became known as the most sinister of overseas
prisons, where in the PIDE section, torture was everyday life. 12
men were kept in an individual cell. He died from asphyxiation. The
barbarity in prisons was rampant and the killing would go unnoticed,
in Portugal, in the pages of post-revolution justice.
In addition to the jails, the political police created recovery
centers. Case of São Nicolau, in Angola, where nationalist
guerrillas were taken, mixed with populations displaced by the
conflict. In these camps there were prisons, work zones and even
satellite villages. The conditions were inhumane: cells measuring 20
by 40 meters, with 200 people, sexual rape, various types of
torture, burial of people alive, crucifixions, shootings.
On Sunday, May 5, 2024 at 11:39:02 AM GMT+1, 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva'
via Goa-Research-Net <goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Alberto,
I suppose we all agree that colonization is a vile violation of the
rights of the colonized peoples. But it weren't "the heavy losses
inflicted by FRELIMO and the MPLA on Portuguese colonial troops in
Mozambique and the North and East of Angola, which precipitated the
events that led to the uprising and military coup of April 25, 1974
in Portugal." In 1973 the independence forces in Angola were
completely defeated and in Mozambique they were on the way to be
neutralized. Only the situation in Guinea Bissau was problematic,
and the 1974 uprising was exclusively due to Spinola and the
officers in Guinea Bissau wanting to force the Lisbon goverment to
accept talking to PAIGC. And, by the way, I was in June 1973 in
Bissau talking to those officers, and while they openly threatened
to take action in Lisbon, once back in Portugal, not one of them
ever mentioned "liberdade" and "democracia" as justifications for
the promised uprising. Those two concepts were quite foreign to
professional officers educated and trained at the Estado
Novo military academies.
Regards
Nuno
SENT: Saturday, May 04, 2024 at 2:42 PM
FROM: albert...@sapo.pt
TO: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com
SUBJECT: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the
president of Portugal
Paulo. Please do not distort the true history of colonization.
Read, here, some excerpts from the president of Angola in Lisbon.
Jornal de Angola.
He said - Allow me to begin by thanking President Marcelo Rebelo de
Sousa for the kind invitation extended to us to participate in the
celebrations of the Fiftieth Anniversary of April 25, 1974.
While the Portuguese people fought against fascism and the Salazar
dictatorship since 1932, we, the African people colonized by
Portugal, HAD BEEN FIGHTING SINCE THE 15TH CENTURY AGAINST
PORTUGUESE COLONIZATION AND ITS CONSEQUENCES SUCH AS SLAVERY AND THE
PLUNDERING OF OUR WEALTH.
WE FOUGHT FOR AN END TO THE ABUSES, CRIMES AND VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN
RIGHTS COMMITTED BY THE COLONIALIST REGIME AGAINST OUR PEOPLE FOR
CENTURIES. WE FOUGHT FOR OUR DIGNITY AS HUMAN BEINGS, WHO MUST HAVE
THE SAME RIGHT TO FREEDOM, THE RIGHT TO BE THE MASTERS OF OUR OWN
DESTINY.
The armed struggles for our Independence in Guinea Bissau, Angola
and Mozambique have reached such an advanced stage, especially after
the failure of the Mar Verde operation, the assassination of Amílcar
Cabral and the proclamation of Independence by the PAIGC in the
hills of Madina de Boé in 1973 in Guinea Bissau, the fiasco of the
Nó Górdio operation and
Regards
Alberto
I think I will agree with Nuno.
Portugal enriched itself with spices early in time more than it did
in more recent times. It benefited mostly due to trade. It did not
rob Goa and its people of anything like others did. And it
developed the place quite well then.
The British pillaged more stuff from India like gold, diamonds and
other precious stones, tea, etc.
The Spanish were terrible, it was mostly gold and silver from their
South American possessions that impoverished these nations.
The French were worse, besides all the above, they have signed
contracts with places like Haiti to have the colonies pay for
damages to the slave owning colonisers! They are still paying a
1825 debt today, no wonder they are bankrupt.
Being born in Angola and grown up in Goa too, life in Portuguese
colonies was different from those of other European powers then. In
Angola were we lived it was paradise and the black people had also
equal rights and quality of life. No discrimination like the
British did in India and the French and Spanish did elsewhere.
One of the major contributions to Goa, the amazing drainage system,
was destroyed by these BJP corrupt politicians who invent new ways
to swindle the population.
India needs to do reparations to Goa for the damage it is doing to
the state and for the money it is robbing its people.
Modern colonisers.
JP
-------------------------
FROM: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net
<goa-research-net@googlegroups.com>
SENT: 26 April 2024 07:56
TO: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com <goa-research-net@googlegroups.com>
SUBJECT: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the
president of Portugal
Yes, throughout the centuries Portugal comitted crimes. Just like
every other country on Earth. But we also helped to build. Without
Portugal there would be no Goan State in India, and Goans would be
a lot different, not necessarily better. Without Portugal there
wouldn't be a great nation such as Brazil. There wouldn't be a
great Angolan state, with a strong sense of identity, with a
prosperous economy built on much of what Portugal built over four
and a half centuries. There wouldn't have been a tolerant Timorese
nation, so different from Indonesia. There wouldn't have been a
marvellously mixed nation such a Cape Verde, where the colour of
skin is completely irrelevant. We took a lot away from those
countries, but I believe we gave back a lot more than we took. No
reparations are needed.
Nuno Cardoso da Silva
SENT: Thursday, April 25, 2024 at 11:56 AM
FROM: "'Pedro Mascarenhas' via Goa-Research-Net"
<goa-research-net@googlegroups.com>
TO: "Goa-Research-Net" <goa-research-net@googlegroups.com>
SUBJECT: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the
president of Portugal
The Portugal’s president, Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, expressed some
opinions at an event with foreign journalists on Tuesday . ( In
the month in which /50 YEARS/ of democracy in /PORTUGAL -
25/04/2024)/
He said António Costa, former prime-minister, son of a Goan, as
someone reflective, the result of eastern ancestry, while Luís
Montenegro, the new prime-minister, is “completely different”.
The head of state did not fail to analyze himself in this aspect.
“I’m a hurried Westerner,” he defined.
The statement about Montenegro came when he explained how he saw
the change of Government ahead of schedule. “He [Luís Montenegro]
is a person who comes from a deep, urban-rural country, with rural
behaviors. He is very curious, difficult to understand, precisely
because of this.
Marcelo added that he “would be happy” and accustomed to António
Costa's governance until 2026, but the dissolution of Parliament
was necessary given his resignation as prime minister and
secretary-general of the Socialist Party (PS).
In the interview with foreign journalists, the President of
Portugal, Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa declared late on Tuesday that
Portugal was responsible for crimes committed during transatlantic
slavery and the colonial era, indicating a necessity for reparations.
https://www.dn.pt/6486274197/marcelo-faz-analises-e-comparacoes-entre-costa-e-luis-montenegro/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/24/portugal-pay-costs-slavery-colonialism-president
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