Hello everyone. I think foruns are good to let people express themselves, but we still have to learn how to communicate better. As Portuguese, I think the discussion of some form of reparation is complex, necessary, and I am not sure that (unwillingly) Marcelo did not trivialize the subject instead of launching a serious debate. It is not something to be started in a meeting with journalists. It is something to be addressed by the MPs at our National Assembly, where all the sensitivities are represented, from extreme left to extreme right. I believe in some symbolical gestures, formal apologies, the return of some works of art, and improved diplomatic relations between the two countries. In time, we will get there. I also want to add that colonialism is wrong, but we are witnessing new forms of colonialism (Ucraine, GAZA), which makes me think we, humankind, do not learn from history. Joana
Joao Paulo Cota <joao_c...@hotmail.com> escreveu (segunda, 6/05/2024 à(s) 17:51): > The return of looted items is morally right in this day and age. > One cannot change the past with a Cntrl+Z buttons kind of action, but at > least the physical remains of this wrong side of history can be made right. > Macron can do better by cancelling Haiti's illegal debt and return all the > moneys collected so far, with interest. > 'Compensation' to ex-colonies could be in the form of programs/projects > aimed to develop and help these suffering nations, who had been deprived to > progress independently. Sending used tech, etc. to help those in need to > stand on their two own feet. > On the other side of the argument, most nations in Africa are now > independent for decades and super rich in resources. > Where is all the money going and how have they progressed? > African people must stop moaning against the colonialists and instead > ensure they elect the right people to govern them, those who have an agenda > to bring prosperity. > I think Santos and his witch daughter Isabel have looted Angola far much > more than the Portuguese ever did for centuries, whist he was in power. > Of course, local Angolans lack grey matter to complain on real issues > affecting them, like joblessness to youth, and Jose Lourenco alone cannot > eradiate corruption. > The entire continent is an almighty mess and now experiencing a second > colonial phase, an economic one, disguised as Chinese and Russian help. > They are just looting the place up and nobody seems to care... > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* goa-research-net@googlegroups.com < > goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> on behalf of albert...@sapo.pt < > albert...@sapo.pt> > *Sent:* 06 May 2024 10:30 > *To:* goa-research-net@googlegroups.com <goa-research-net@googlegroups.com > > > *Subject:* Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the > president of Portugal > > Nuno > You exaggerated by attributing the term “hate Portugal” to Pedro, since > nowhere in his texts did I find this proof. The Forum is for discussing > opinions and not for attacking others. Whoever has no arguments offends > others. I know some old people feel insignificant since the loss of the > empire. > The payment of compensation to former colonies is a source of disagreement > among historians and activists — despite some having already been carried > out by Portugal. But the return of works of art is less controversial. The > return of cultural works and objects looted by colonizing countries has > been repeated over the years in countries such as France, Germany, > Switzerland or the Netherlands (even the United Kingdom has already begun > to return looted objects, after removing the idea). > These are the most developed societies, especially France led by Macron. > Regards > Alberto. > ----- Mensagem de 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net < > goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> --------- > Data: Sun, 5 May 2024 19:10:08 +0200 > De: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net < > goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> > Assunto: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the > president of Portugal > Para: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com > > Pedro, > > You hate too much Portugal and the Portuguese to be a reliable source of > information or a fair analyst of the Portuguese actions. We did enough bad > things throughout our history not to need your fairytales to pass judgement > on us. When I was teaching at the university, in Lisbon, one of my > colleague professors was a black Angolan who had been a top cadre of UNITA > and had been sent to the São Nicolau camp. I once asked him about his > experience there and he told me he had never been tortured or mistreated, > although conditions were rough. I have no doubt torture was used under > certain circumstances, but people who were already convicted of deeds > against the security of the state, and were already in prison, had no > reason to be further interrogated and tortured. The idea was to keep them > away and prevent them from continuing fighting against Portuguese rule. As > to PIDE, they organized counter terrorism units made up of former > guerrilleros in Angola and Mozambique, the so called Flechas. I doubt they > would have been able to recruit as many guerrillas as they did if they had > systematically tortured their prisoners. Yes, torture was used but not as > indiscriminately as you suggest. Which doesn't make PIDE a better > organization. They were the violent tools of repression and must be > condemned by all of us. But we have nothing to gain by trying to make them > more brutal and murderous than they already were. Violence, torture and > repression have been the tools of many states, some of them supposedly > democratic. Like the actions of the UK on Northern Ireland against IRA. Or > US actions in Iraq. Or French actions in Algeria. We are unfortunately a > murderous species... > > Best regards > > Nuno > > > *Sent:* Sunday, May 05, 2024 at 3:10 PM > *From:* "'Pedro Mascarenhas' via Goa-Research-Net" < > goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> > *To:* "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com" < > goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> > *Subject:* Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the > president of Portugal > > > Quoting Hemingway's story about the fisherman and the huge fish that were > nothing more than bones when they were brought ashore. The big fish were > the colonies and the fisherman is Salazar. It's not worth whitewashing the > true story. > > The most important thing is that Africa expelled the racists. > > We are not talking about the Portuguese people who on April 25, 2024 took > to the streets to express the joy of democracy. > > See the video : https://ensina.rtp.pt/artigo/os-carceres-do-imperio/ > > Although little documented, the history of the activities of the > Portuguese Portuguese police (PIDE) in the colonies, during the Estado > Novo, takes us to a world of atrocities committed before, but especially > after the start of the colonial war. A vast network of jails and work camps > were merciless prisons for thousands who opposed the regime and their > representatives were never punished. > > In 1961, with the start of the war in Angola, the PIDE (International and > State Defense Police) created its own delegations, sub-delegations, posts, > mobile brigades and militias overseas. Contrary to what was happening in > Portugal, in Africa the agents were well regarded and considered as allies > by the racist. The objective was to persecute the nationalists and, to this > end, they had a vast system of prisons and work camps, which were nothing > more than concentration camps. > > Tarrafal, on the Cape Verdean island of Santiago, is perhaps the > best-known prison in the colonies. From 1962 onwards, it opened its doors > again to house mainly prisoners linked to the struggles for > self-determination, such as Luandino Vieira or Justino Pinto de Andrade. > > But the great atrocities of political jailers extended to other colonies. > Cases such as the Machava prison, in the Mozambican capital, which became > known as the most sinister of overseas prisons, where in the PIDE section, > torture was everyday life. 12 men were kept in an individual cell. He died > from asphyxiation. The barbarity in prisons was rampant and the killing > would go unnoticed, in Portugal, in the pages of post-revolution justice. > > In addition to the jails, the political police created recovery centers. > Case of São Nicolau, in Angola, where nationalist guerrillas were taken, > mixed with populations displaced by the conflict. In these camps there were > prisons, work zones and even satellite villages. The conditions were > inhumane: cells measuring 20 by 40 meters, with 200 people, sexual rape, > various types of torture, burial of people alive, crucifixions, shootings. > On Sunday, May 5, 2024 at 11:39:02 AM GMT+1, 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via > Goa-Research-Net <goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > Alberto, > > I suppose we all agree that colonization is a vile violation of the rights > of the colonized peoples. But it weren't "the heavy losses inflicted by > FRELIMO and the MPLA on Portuguese colonial troops in Mozambique and the > North and East of Angola, which precipitated the events that led to the > uprising and military coup of April 25, 1974 in Portugal." In 1973 the > independence forces in Angola were completely defeated and in Mozambique > they were on the way to be neutralized. Only the situation in Guinea Bissau > was problematic, and the 1974 uprising was exclusively due to Spinola and > the officers in Guinea Bissau wanting to force the Lisbon goverment to > accept talking to PAIGC. And, by the way, I was in June 1973 in Bissau > talking to those officers, and while they openly threatened to take action > in Lisbon, once back in Portugal, not one of them ever mentioned > "liberdade" and "democracia" as justifications for the promised uprising. > Those two concepts were quite foreign to professional officers educated and > trained at the Estado Novo military academies. > > Regards > > Nuno > > > *Sent:* Saturday, May 04, 2024 at 2:42 PM > *From:* albert...@sapo.pt > *To:* goa-research-net@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the > president of Portugal > > > Paulo. Please do not distort the true history of colonization. > > > Read, here, some excerpts from the president of Angola in Lisbon. Jornal > de Angola. > > > He said - Allow me to begin by thanking President Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa > for the kind invitation extended to us to participate in the celebrations > of the Fiftieth Anniversary of April 25, 1974. > > > While the Portuguese people fought against fascism and the Salazar > dictatorship since 1932, we, the African people colonized by Portugal, HAD > BEEN FIGHTING SINCE THE 15TH CENTURY AGAINST PORTUGUESE COLONIZATION AND > ITS CONSEQUENCES SUCH AS SLAVERY AND THE PLUNDERING OF OUR WEALTH. > WE FOUGHT FOR AN END TO THE ABUSES, CRIMES AND VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS > COMMITTED BY THE COLONIALIST REGIME AGAINST OUR PEOPLE FOR CENTURIES. WE > FOUGHT FOR OUR DIGNITY AS HUMAN BEINGS, WHO MUST HAVE THE SAME RIGHT TO > FREEDOM, THE RIGHT TO BE THE MASTERS OF OUR OWN DESTINY. > > > > > > The armed struggles for our Independence in Guinea Bissau, Angola and > Mozambique have reached such an advanced stage, especially after the > failure of the Mar Verde operation, the assassination of Amílcar Cabral and > the proclamation of Independence by the PAIGC in the hills of Madina de Boé > in 1973 in Guinea Bissau, the fiasco of the Nó Górdio operation and > Regards > Alberto > > > > > I think I will agree with Nuno. > Portugal enriched itself with spices early in time more than it did in > more recent times. It benefited mostly due to trade. It did not rob Goa and > its people of anything like others did. And it developed the place quite > well then. > The British pillaged more stuff from India like gold, diamonds and other > precious stones, tea, etc. > The Spanish were terrible, it was mostly gold and silver from their South > American possessions that impoverished these nations. > The French were worse, besides all the above, they have signed contracts > with places like Haiti to have the colonies pay for damages to the slave > owning colonisers! They are still paying a 1825 debt today, no wonder they > are bankrupt. > Being born in Angola and grown up in Goa too, life in Portuguese colonies > was different from those of other European powers then. In Angola were we > lived it was paradise and the black people had also equal rights and > quality of life. No discrimination like the British did in India and the > French and Spanish did elsewhere. > One of the major contributions to Goa, the amazing drainage system, was > destroyed by these BJP corrupt politicians who invent new ways to swindle > the population. > India needs to do reparations to Goa for the damage it is doing to the > state and for the money it is robbing its people. > Modern colonisers. > JP > ------------------------------ > > *From:* 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net < > goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> > *Sent:* 26 April 2024 07:56 > *To:* goa-research-net@googlegroups.com <goa-research-net@googlegroups.com > > > *Subject:* Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the > president of Portugal > > Yes, throughout the centuries Portugal comitted crimes. Just like every > other country on Earth. But we also helped to build. Without Portugal there > would be no Goan State in India, and Goans would be a lot different, not > necessarily better. Without Portugal there wouldn't be a great nation such > as Brazil. There wouldn't be a great Angolan state, with a strong sense of > identity, with a prosperous economy built on much of what Portugal built > over four and a half centuries. There wouldn't have been a tolerant > Timorese nation, so different from Indonesia. There wouldn't have been a > marvellously mixed nation such a Cape Verde, where the colour of skin is > completely irrelevant. We took a lot away from those countries, but I > believe we gave back a lot more than we took. No reparations are needed. > > Nuno Cardoso da Silva > > > *Sent:* Thursday, April 25, 2024 at 11:56 AM > *From:* "'Pedro Mascarenhas' via Goa-Research-Net" < > goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> > *To:* "Goa-Research-Net" <goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> > *Subject:* [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president > of Portugal > > The Portugal’s president, Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, expressed some opinions > at an event with foreign journalists on Tuesday . ( In the month in which *50 > years* of democracy in *Portugal** - 25/04/2024)* > > > > He said António Costa, former prime-minister, son of a Goan, as someone > reflective, the result of eastern ancestry, while Luís Montenegro, the new > prime-minister, is “completely different”. > > The head of state did not fail to analyze himself in this aspect. “I’m a > hurried Westerner,” he defined. > > The statement about Montenegro came when he explained how he saw the > change of Government ahead of schedule. “He [Luís Montenegro] is a person > who comes from a deep, urban-rural country, with rural behaviors. He is > very curious, difficult to understand, precisely because of this. > > Marcelo added that he “would be happy” and accustomed to António Costa's > governance until 2026, but the dissolution of Parliament was necessary > given his resignation as prime minister and secretary-general of the > Socialist Party (PS). > > In the interview with foreign journalists, the President of Portugal, Marcelo > Rebelo de Sousa declared late on Tuesday that Portugal was responsible for > crimes committed during transatlantic slavery and the colonial era, > indicating a necessity for reparations. > > > > > https://www.dn.pt/6486274197/marcelo-faz-analises-e-comparacoes-entre-costa-e-luis-montenegro/ > > > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/24/portugal-pay-costs-slavery-colonialism-president > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to 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