Eu refiro-me a outros temas, da atualidade nacional ou internacional. O mundo
estão tão complicado (direi estranho ou, noutra perspetiva, mais claro perante
os interesses das diversas potências) que deves ter análises interessantes a
mostrar.Joaquim
On Thursday, January 8, 2026, 01:04:42 PM GMT, Edgar Valles
<[email protected]> wrote:
Concerning the accusation that "Many of the sailors who accompanied Gama were
CRIMINALS RELEASED FROM PRISON", this is not entirely true. Most of the sailors
were people from the interior of Portugal, who had never see the sea and were
not aware of the danger of the oceans. People who lived in the littoral of
Portugal were afraid of the sea and didn't want to go to the ships (one third
of the ships that went to India sank).Of course, there were also criminals. as
there were criminals in all armies.Concerning Angola, it is not true that "a
group of far-left activists from Portugal landed in Luanda and tried to
overthrow the legitimate government of Agostinho Neto". As Albert mentioned,the
winners write History, not the defeated.Angola is now one of the most corrupt
regimes in the world. A very rich country, where people live miserably. This
began to happen soon after independence. A very large group of militants of the
liberation movement tried to avoid the path of corruption and keep the way to a
real independence. Agostinho Neto and his followers aniquilated this group and
many angolan innocents, murdering about 30 000 angolans...Edgar VallesLisbon
<[email protected]> escreveu (quarta, 7/01/2026 à(s) 15:12):
Talking about the wars in the Indian subcontinent, Kadamba, Yadava, etc.,
doesn't justify anything, because in Europe there were also wars between the
Portuguese and Spanish, Germans and French, Napoleon and Hitler wanted to
invade Russia and were defeated, etc., but these were wars between neighbors on
the same continent. (Europe was responsible for both world wars).
What do Asians, Africans, native Brazilians, First Nations of Canada, the USA,
Australia, and New Zealand think when Vasco, Albuquerque, Columbus, Pizarro,
and Cortés are mentioned? That they were pirates who came from afar to steal,
enslave, etc. Even today in Hungary and Poland, the Mongols of Genkis Khan are
classified as savages who came to steal.
The opinions of these people are WORTH MORE THAN the illusory grandeur of the
invaders.
The statues erected of them in the former colonies were torn down because they
celebrated and represented the excruciating suffering of innocent people. These
statues were transferred to museums so that future generations could learn
about the past.
Monuments honoring Josef Stalin disappeared from Eastern European countries
after the fall of the Soviet Union. In 2003, US Army soldiers destroyed the
statue of Saddam Hussein in Karbala after the invasion of Iraq. In the US,
several monuments linked to slavery and colonialism, such as statues of
Columbus, were targeted. In the United Kingdom, the statue of the trafficker
Edward Colston was torn down. And in São Paulo, protesters set fire to a statue
of the bandeirante Borba Gato - a fugitive from the law, gold smuggler, linked
to the enslavement of Indians and blacks in Brazil and who played a prominent
role in the expeditions into the Brazilian hinterland.
Many of the sailors who accompanied Gama were CRIMINALS RELEASED FROM PRISON.
Even after Angola's independence, for example, a group of far-left activists
from Portugal landed in Luanda and tried to overthrow the legitimate government
of Agostinho Neto. They were repelled and thrown into a mass grave. This is
anti-colonial history.
History is a science based on data, not on public opinion? History is based on
the testimonies of the conquerors/victors, based on ideologies, racial
supremacy, etc. It is not an exact science. Mathematics is considered an exact
science. So, 2 plus 2 equals 4 and there's no arguing about it, and it's the
same throughout the universe.
Alberto
----- Mensagem de Edgar Valles <> ---------
Data: Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:04:30 +0000
De: Edgar Valles <>
Assunto: Re: [GRN] Vasco da Gama
Para:
Very good and deep explanation , about Portuguese role in Goa, the one made by
John de Figueiredo. I agree with it.
However, the last conclusion may arise controversy:
"The Portuguese only became foreigners in India on August 15, 1947, the day
when the “tryst with Destiny” occurred (to use the famous expression of
Jawaharlal Nehru).".
This would be true if Goa was integrated into British India. But it was not the
case, Goa was a Portuguese colony and the independence of India didn't change
its status.
For example, Indonesia became independent in 1945 and Portugal ruled Timor
Leste until Indonesia invaded it in 1975. Portuguese didn't become foreigners
in Timor Leste in 1945, just because Indonesia became independent.
By the way, as the people of Timor Leste didn't accept the invasion by
Indonesia and fought, they were able to exercise the right of self
determination in a referendum and on the 2th May 2002 independence was
proclaimed. Indonesia , the invasor,was forced to give up Timor Leste.
According to the principles of Bandung Conference in 1955 and the United Nation
rules, people of a colonial territory should be allowed to decide their own
future. So, if Portuguese presence in Goa was legimitated till 1947, it didn't
become illegitimate just because India became independent in 1947.
It would be different if Goans expressed the decision to be part of India at
that time. Then, Portuguese would be "foreigners in Goa" from that year...
My thoughts are not politically motivated, as the past belongs to the past. ..
Edgar Valles
Lisbon
JOHN DE FIGUEIREDO <[email protected]> escreveu (domingo, 4/01/2026 à(s)
06:42):
Let us not be elitist when judging Vasco da Gama. If he came from a lower
social class (meaning, I trust, that he came from a poor family with a low
educational level), then my admiration for him is even greater. Clearly, he had
to overcome a significant social disadvantage to master and excel in the
science and art of navigation and to convince his King that a “commoner” like
him was up to the extraordinary mission of commanding a fleet from Portugal to
India and back. And he did this, not once or twice, but 5 times. He connected
the dots and demonstrated how this could be achieved. Was he helped by others?
Sure. He was helped by the discovery of Bartolomeu Dias that Africa had an end
and by the Arab pilot who guided him from East Africa to India. But so were
Watson and Crick in their discovery of the structure of DNA. They were helped
by the previous discoveries of Erwin Chargaff and Rosalind Franklin. This is
how human knowledge advances, step by step, one discovery leading to the next
one. His important achievement set the stage for an unprecedented globalization
of knowledge. Was he perfect? Far from it. Understanding something is not the
same as excusing it. What he did to the Muslim pilgrims is abominable by
today’s standards, but it was (as Frederick said) fair game in his time. In
1469, Virupaksha I, Emperor of Vijayanagara, ordered the massacre of thousands
of Muslims in Bhatkal. The few who survived fled to (guess where) Goa, where
they found a home and thrived. Let us not be harsher in our judgment of Vasco
da Gama just because he was a European or he was from a “lower class.” It
really does not matter what Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, or Parsis think
of Vasco da Gama. History is a science based on data, not on public opinion. My
point is that as Viceroy of India, his message to fellow Europeans was: “If you
are corrupt and steal from the public treasury, I will punish you.” And that is
exactly what he did, and this is why we, Goans, should respect and admire Vasco
da Gama as a person with integrity. It was a risky decision. With the benefit
of hindsight, we can say that several of his successors as Governors or
Viceroys (including our own Barnardo Peres da Silva) were deposed by military
coups when they attempted to do what he did. A Secretary of State (European),
who was, like Gama, a person with integrity, was assassinated in plain daylight
in front of the Government Palace in Panjim by some fellow Europeans who saw
him as an obstacle to their schemes and scams. Imagine a scenario in which
Vasco da Gama looked the other way and may have even pocketed some money
himself. Today, we would correctly say that he was a thief and a party to a
cover-up. But that is not what he did.
Why did the Portuguese occupy and settle in Goa? Good question. The last
time I heard this question was from my friend Luiz de Camoes. He had Vasco da
Gama being asked: “Quem te trouxe a estoutro mundo, tão longe da tua Pátria
Lusitana?” (“Who brought you to this other world, so far away from your
Lusitanian Motherland? "). This question raises all sorts of other questions.
What made the Kadambas infiltrate Goa after they were defeated by the Chalukyas
and conquer Goa, defeating its legitimate Goan Kings? What made the Yadavas
conquer Goa, terrorize the Goans, and impose their language (Marathi) on the
Goans? What made the Bahmanis and the Delhi Muslims invade Goa and terrorize
the Goans? What made Vijayanagara conquer Goa? What forced Goa into the
Sultanate of Bijapur? The only answer that comes to my mind is what my teacher
of History at the Liceu, Rev. Dr. Antonio Garcia, S.J., used to say: “Just like
in the big ocean the big fish eat the small fish, so the stronger peoples
invade and conquer the weaker ones.” Happens even to this day, right under our
noses. It seems to me that the fundamental misconception in this conversation
is to view the Portuguese in Vasco da Gama’s time as foreigners. In fact, they
were not “more foreigners” or “less foreigners” in Gama’s time than the
Kadambas, the Yadavas, and all those other guys. The Portuguese only became
foreigners in India on August 15, 1947, the day when the “tryst with Destiny”
occurred (to use the famous expression of Jawaharlal Nehru). This is why an
agent of Vijayanagara approached Afonso de Albuquerque with the assent of some
Goans and asked him to free Goa from Bijapur.
Sorry for this long note.
John M. de Figueiredo
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