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Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It is unfortunate that many of my simple questions > and requests about fake morality were not answered. > Instead, we have the all-too-familiar name-calling > directed at some unknown imaginary folk, prejudiced > false assumptions about me, and unwarranted personal > insults, including an attempt to associate me with > Hitler. > > The reason for engaging in this behavior is not > clear to me. Does the moral code of any group > dictate such behavior? But perhaps, this display > reveals more about the individual or group member > who resorts to it than about the people against > whom it is directed. Therefore, I will simply > address a few points, and end by asking one more > time my unanswered questions, with a humble request > to answer them without resorting to gratuitous name- > calling, derisive remarks and prejudiced > assumptions meant to portray me as morally > and intellectually inferior to members who are > affiliated with some religious and other groups. > Mario responds: > Can you cite who has "associated" you with Hitler, including exactly what they said? No one has done so as far as I know. Hitler was a one and only. > Can you cite who has portrayed you as morally and intellectually inferior to anyone, including exactly what they said? No one has done so as far as I know. The last time I checked you were considered morally and intellectually superior to the rest of us, with a solid home-made moral code, while many of us are like a "mob" or a "herd" with mush for brains. > Instead, what you have proved beyond the shadow of any doubt is that you are relentlessly hostile to religion, religious people and other moral organizations that have rock solid moral codes for their members. > Everything you have written below re-emphasizes this. > > Mario Goveia previously wrote: > > > >Perhaps that is also why you are being veritably > >inundated with responses. > > Santosh answered: > > Is this a statement of fact or of sarcasm? I have > not seen any such inundation. > Mario responds: > Sarcasm, Santosh. The response shows that most Goanetters shake their heads at your anti-religious zealotry. Sheesh! > > Santosh writes: > > The rationale has already been provided. Please see > my earlier post. > Mario responds: > No rationale was provided. Just "Wrong answer. But never mind." I reject "But never mind" as a rationale for anything. > > Mario previously wrote: > > >If by "mob psychology" and "herd mentality" you > mean religion,............ > > Santosh replied: > > Wrong and prejudiced assumption. Both religious and > non-religious groups are prone to mob psychology and > herd mentality. Non-religious groups include > political parties, trade unions, lobbies, secular > humanists, etc. > Mario responds: > What I said was neither wrong nor prejudiced, other than prejudiced towards immoral analogies. You have continued to hide behind Buddhists and Jains as being atheists, whereas they are moral organizations with religion-like features. You clearly called membership in a religion and such a moral organization as "mob psychology" and "herd mentality" > Trade unions and lobbies are null and void in a discussion of moral codes as these are not organizations based on moral principles as the Buddhists and Jains are. > I am still looking for a secular humanist organization that has any moral tenets or any purpose other than to attack religion and religious people. > Mario previously wrote: > > > > All we see are platitudes towards individualism > > and independent thinking, which conveniently > > absolves one of all responsibility other than > > that thankfully imposed by law. > > Santosh answered: > > Incoherent statement, and absurd dismissal of > individualism and independent thinking. It is well > known that todays laws were framed by rational > independent thinkers. A large part of the modern > legal system is to protect the rights of the > individual. The notion that rational independent > thinking and individualism absolves anyone of > individual personal responsibility is utterly > preposterous. > Mario responds: > Another convenient label to hide behind. "Rational independent thinking" can mean anything the "rational independent thinker" wants it to be, and we would not know what it is unless the person gets arrested. It may include an excellent moral code, even a superior one, but it may also not. > Mario previously wrote: > > > > Since we have established that the "mob behavior" > > you are referring to is the practice of religion, > > can you show us where anyone has been arrested > > while following the rock solid moral code of any > > religion? > > Santosh answers: > > Who are the "we" that you are referring to? Please > name all the members of your group who have > established such a fake assumption. If you cannot do > so, I humbly request you not to ascribe your > prejudices to others. > Mario responds: > The "we" includes anyone who can think straight, and read and understand what you have written. I have clearly shown again above, that you were referring to religious people and members of other moral organizations as having a "mob or herd mentality" > Santosh writes: > > However, as a statement of fact modern secular laws > have many conflicts with various religious codes. > > For example, people belonging to religious sects > whose moral codes ban childhood immunization have > been arrested for refusing to give Polio vaccines to > their children. > Mario responds: > These are fringe sects, as you surely know, not recognized mainstream religions or moral organizations. Imagine what all the unorganized individual atheists running around may be thinking and doing including those like yourself claiming that members of religions and moral organizations are "mobs" and "herds". > Santosh writes: > > Sati and religious human sacrifice are banned by > secular laws. People who still practice them in > India have been arrested. > Mario responds: > Can you cite any evidence that Hindus are practicing sati and human sacrifice? Contrast this with atheists claiming that members of religions and moral organizations are "mobs" and "herds". > Santosh writes: > > Mormons have been arrested in the U.S. for > practicing polygamy according to their moral code. > Mario responds: > How come such a staunch enemy of religion and religious people does not know that the Mormons banned polygamy over a hundred years ago? > Santosh writes: > > Digambara Jains who practice nudism would be > arrested for nudity. > Mario responds: > Nudism, in and of itself, violates only civil laws, not any moral code. > Santosh continues his attack on morality: > > Satya Sai Baba, a founding godman of a religious > sect would have been arrested for ritualistic > pedophilia if the existing secular laws were > properly enforced. > Mario responds: > Can you cite any evidence of such "ritualistic pedophilia"? If true, it would be a violation of his version of the Golden Rule. > Santosh writes: > > Please let me know if you need any more such > examples. > Mario responds: > Please, give us many more, so that everyone on Goanet can see how hostile you are to religion, religious peopl, and recognizable morality in general. > Mario had previously written: > > > >There are no religious moral codes that encourage > >nudism or pedophilia. > > Santosh writes: > > Wrong as usual. Please see above. > Mario responds: > Right, as usual, as shown in detail above. > > Mario previously wrote: > > >Nothing in any religious moral code harms or even > >threatens individuals or society as a whole. > > Santosh answered: > > Wrong as usual. Please see above. Please let me know > if you need other examples. > Mario responds: > More such examples the better to make my point that you are hostile to religion, religious people, organized moral organizations, and their rock solid moral codes. > All you have cited are your version of narrow exceptions to rock solid moral codes and the actions of fringe groups whose codes may be as good or non-existent as unorganized individual atheists. > Exceptions do not violate the rock solid moral codes of religions and moral organizations, when compared with all your unorganized individual atheists running around doing who know what. > > Mario previously wrote: > > >One has to belong to an organization to appreciate > >losing credibility within it or the more serious > >consequences of being excluded from the group or > >publicly censured by the group's leadership. > > Santosh answered: > > How many people have suffered these serious > consequences for violating the first three > commandments of the modern modified version of the > code of your group? > Can you name any of these people? > Does this apply to other groups such as Hindus, > Communists, Secular Humanists, etc, as well? > Mario answers: > People who violate a moral code they have accepted do not invalidate the code itself. Communists are atheists with codes that are, on balance, the opposite of moral. Secular humanists are atheists who are unable to show that they have done anything remotely "humanist". > Santosh writes: > > Also please note that you have not responded to the > following questions and requests. I humbly request > you to do so without trying to offend me. Your > repeated attempts at personal insult are unlikely > to raise your credibility in the minds of any > individual or group member. > Mario responds: > None of your questions rebut my ONLY point, which is that unorganized individual atheists may have good moral codes, but no one knows what they are or when convenient exceptions are made, unless they get arrested. > _______________________________________________ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org