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Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi Mario, Firstly, I thank you for your fairly civil reply to my mail, and for taking my words in the right spirit! Keep it up! ----------- Mario wrote: Aristo, If I accused you wrongly in the heat of the debate, I apologize. Aristo responds: Apology accepted! ----------- Mario wrote: However, having said that, branding communism as "deadly and destructive" is nothing but historical fact. Some 50 million dead Russians, Chinese, Vietnamese and Cambodians would gladly testify to that, not to mention the millions of miserable east Europeans and Chinese who suffered massive economic deprivation until their governments jettisoned communism. Aristo responds: Perhaps you are justified in thinking it was a destructive philosophy from the practical point of view, ie, what communist controlled states turned out to be. But what I am talking about is the Communist philosophy, of which people all over the world subscribe to (some who may have formed political parties that don't really stand a chance), right from US & Canada in the west to Japan in the east. Economics aside, it is not a destructive philosophy. Sadly, N. Korea, Chinese and Cuba have self serving dictators, who are not really bothered about the welfare of the common people. ----------- Mario wrote: But how did you miss their incredibly repressive societies with no freedom of speech or religion or property ownership, and dictatorial suppression of personal freedoms? Definitely absent from history class:-)) Aristo responds: You are right. I did forget to mention my distaste for communism's affiliation with Autocracy & with Anarchy in some cases. But Communism can survive in a democratic setup, but again, that's only when they are in a minority and have no other option. --------------- Mario wrote: Where did you get the quaint notion that communism was "egalitarian". Oh, I know. Because the communists said so, just like the secular humanists say they are humanist. Aristo wrote: It do not think it is written anywhere in the Communist Manifesto (yea, I had to actually download it and go through it since you love to refer to it ever so often) that Communism has to be brutal and repressive. As per the philosophy, Communism IS egalitarian in nature. What you refer to is the deviants, but I am talking about peaceful and well intentioned Communists of today. Even the Keralite Communists of yesterday are proof of the egalitarian ideals of Communism. However, I do not subscribe to the means of obtaining that egalitarianism, ie, the Robin hood method. To me, altruism (which is against human nature) should be voluntary. I'd rather prefer the trickle down effect, and circulation of money to achieve egalitarianism. Plus, ever so often, gems like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates (forget the means by which he got rich) donate sums greater than Germany's annual defense budget and India's annual Health budget put together, and that couldn't happen under communism. ------------- Mario wrote: Aristo, Since you have no idea how repressive communist societies were and are [Cuba and N. Korea ring a bell?] it is no surprise to find that you think they were islands of religious freedom and harmony. Are you old enough to remember "Garbage In, garbage out?" The same applies to Google, my friend. Try the following URL which addresses what you missed in your biased and narrow search: http://www.marxists.org/archive/bukharin/works/1920/abc/11.htm Aristo responds: OK, I must admit I was wrong in thinking that theoretically, religion had nothing to do with Communism. I was under the impression that Godless Commies of the yesteryear's was just a regional coincidence. I had to do a lot of research on it, with more pertinent searches like "Communism & Religion? and "God and Communism" to avoid the gigo errors. But I must say, feet doesn't taste all that bad! --------------- Mario wrote: But since you are serious guy, here is another URL to help you catch up: http://www.britannica.com/nobel/micro/733_51.html ...If you read this book you will pretty much be up to speed on the non-economic horrors of communism. Aristo responds: This is an example of the deeds of a brutal dictatorial regime who, like most other dictatorial regimes - Communist or not, inevitably turn out to be ruthless and corrupt. ---------------- Having admitted to my wrong notions (much unlike one of your cubs {Simba is it?}, who cannot do so when confronted with black & white statistics), I still insist that you are stuck in a time capsule. The reason that I still don't believe that, TODAY, a Christian Communist is a contradiction is because of the following: 1) I have friends who are Christian Communists. (Christian by religion, Communist by Political & Economic Ideology) 2) I do not subscribe to Bukharin's and Preobrazhensky's assertion (from your link) that Christian Communists are weak kneed Communists or cease to be Communist, just because, theoretically, Karl Marx and the Communist Manifesto said so. More so, the argument they put forth for practical reasons is as follows: "In practice, no less than in theory, communism is incompatible with religious faith. The tactic of the Communist Party prescribes for the members of the party definite lines of conduct. The moral code of every religion in like manner prescribes for the faithful some definite line of conduct. For example, the Christian code runs: 'Whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.' In most cases there is an irreconcilable conflict between the principles of communist tactics and the commandments of religion. A communist who rejects the commandments of religion and acts in accordance with the directions of the party, ceases to be one of the faithful. On the other hand, one who, while calling himself a communist, continues to cling to his religious faith, one who in the name of religious commandments infringes the prescriptions of the party, ceases thereby to be a communist." Is this a real argument?? I still do not understand IN TODAY'S WORLD, why is it contradictory for a person to be a Christian by religion, and a Communist by political/economic ideology? As FN said it best, "If Communism is "godless", that is largely as a reaction to the reality that religion - particularly by the mid-nineteenth century - was already a powerful ideological force, used in its day to justify the forces of feudalism, colonialism, slavery and even Fascism. By making sure that conservatism stays fully in control of religion, the Mario Goveias are ensuring the continued political misuse of religion. Much like the Hindutva lobby in India is trying to manage the political misuse of a religion (Hinduism) which is quite removed from a political ideology (HIndutva)." So coming back to my question, in today's world, can a Christian be a Communist? Theory, Karl Marx and 19th Century Communist Manifesto aside, what is the contradiction? If not, please inform me, so that I can call up my friends to tell them that they are a contradiction! (I will be gentle!) Cheers, Aristo. _______________________________________________ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org