Dear Nigel,
I do appreciate your interest and concern for this theological theme.
Your posting has been too long. You are in a different wavelength. You have
not understood my theological language: "faith" in the biblical sense, which
I have explained in short terms as "God's activity in human hearts". You are
then confusing the issues. Remember that I am discussing under the title
"Salvation of non-Christians".
You do not have to give up, neither do I give up. I know what I am
talking about.
You said :> All human beings have the law in themselves, not without the
activity of God in them.
* Remember that I am quoting the text of St.Paul and commenting it (cf.Rm
1:18-20; 2:14). It is the authority of the Christian Scriptures which you
accept.
All have the "law" within themselves does not mean that they do not need
education and formation. There can be ill-formation about the contents of
the Law. Or people may not know explicitly the law of Christ. St.Thomas
Aquinas adds that the Gentiles (non-evangelized) can know the law which is
within them and glorify God, God is there with his Grace. This is the
situation of those who do not know Jesus explicitly. "All have fallen short
of glory of God" (cf.Rm 5:23), therefore all need Grace.
<< Faith with knowledge is better.
Better than what? It implies that faith without knowledge is also
acceptable.
*"Faith" in the Pauline, biblical sense is God's activity in human beings,
as I have already said. There can be Grace of God without explicit knowledge
of Christ. You are confusing the word "faith". I am not discussing faith
(or belief) in the common acceptance, at the intellectual level.
<<That is called blind faith. The ancient people had faith without
knowledge. The people who believed in Baal, and all those weird gods whose
names I don't really remember. That did not please God. The ancient people
built idols and had faith in them (an earlier kind of human-invented
religion). We know how pleased God was with them.
*I am not passing verdict about their "faith"... Neither am I discussing
the problem of "polytheism" or belief in many gods... Please, do not
confuse the issues...
You also said :> That is the reason
why we have to proclaim the Truth, salvation by Jesus. It is always a
'narrow road', that of sacrifice for all, whether they are believers or
atheists or agnostic.
*Since you know whom you believe you have the duty to proclaim the
Truth.The road of Jesus is the "narrow road". There are people going
through the narrow road, although they have not arrived at the explicit
knowledge of Jesus. This is the existential situation. We are referring to
this situation.
But then as you said, faith without knowledge is also acceptable, right?
*Right or wrong according to the situation. What is faith for you? You have
misunderstood the whole issue.
"...all get saved, irrespective of whether they know Jesus or
not,
* Wrong. I never said it. You are distorting it by taking it outside the
context. I have quoted the text of Acts 10:35.
"...and yet you say, we have an obligation to witness. What's the point?
*If you proclaim and witness, then more people will come to know the Truth
explicitly...
Isn't it an exercise in futility, if the end result is going to be the
same
in anycase?
*This is your and my duty, as St.Paul reapeats in his letters. The
end-result will be that more people will come to know the Truth and embrace
it.
<<Romans 3:24. "Being justified
freely by his Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus". Need
I
say more?
*I have already answered this question. You are not saying anything new.
Objectively, the Grace of Jesus saves.
You are forgetting that we are dealing with the non-evangelized.
<< The Church did not originally hold this teaching. It suddenly changed its
stance sometime during the century.
* This teaching is found already in the Scriptures. The problem came with
the salvation of Greeks. St.Paul will teach you about it. Explicit
theological reflection came later on.
<<God's Word doesn't change. I do not know
the basis or, as you say, 'background' of the Church's teaching of
Salvation
of non-Christians.
*God's Word is deepened in the new existential situation. This situation was
already in the New Testament, as I said. Later on, with 'discoveries' of new
continents and people the problem was discussed and explicitated. The
opinion of
Fr.Leonard Fenney that all the Gentiles are condemned has been condemned. I
am not
giving here the survey and background of the axiom "Outside the Church,
there is no salvation". If you are interested, you can read it in
theological reviews and books.
<<It might not convince us,
but would definitely enlighten us on why people believe the things they
do.
*How can I convince you? You have not understood what I am trying to
say...
Know Jesus, Know Life. No Jesus, No Life.
*Therefore, we have the duty of proclaiming. All people have the duty of
searching meaning for life and living according to their light. God does
the
rest.
This is NOT what I meant when I said Know Jesus, Know Life. No Jesus, No
Life.
I meant that Eternal Life is ONLY through Jesus Christ, and without Him,
it's not attainable. And then you mentioned about proclaiming, which
contradicts your earlier statements about salvation of non-Christians.
*Again, you have misunderstood the whole issue. You proclaim the Truth:
Only Jesus saves.We have to proclaim so that all people come to "know
Jesus, know life". I agree with it. What about those who have not heard it
or accepted it? Are all of them condemned? "No Jesus, no life"? If they
through no fault of theirs
do not know Christ explicitly but are open to God's Grace, can they not be
saved? Remember
that they do not have explicit knowledge of Jesus and his salvation. This
is the problem of salvation of non-Christians. There is no contradiction
whatsoever.
Truth Liberates (?)
*You have to understand what is the truth about the salvation of
non-Christians.
Sans rancune...
Fr.Ivo