Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 05:10:18 -0400 From: Joe Lobo <tw...@pathcom.com>
As a goan who has spent more time outside Goa, I personally feel that this historical quest of yours is an attempt to stir up events that happened a good 400 years ago or so.........which will engender communal discord between the Hindu and Christian communities. Mario asks: Joe, Kitem mhontai, re? Are you saying that a discussion of FACTUAL information of ancient atrocities that have ceased hundreds of years ago is going to create discord between Hindus and Christians today? May I remind you that Christians have recently been attacked by Hindutva thugs in India and the Inquisition was not one of the excuses proclaimed by the Hindutvas for these attacks. Sapna Sahani wrote: I thought this list had intellectuals who could respectfully debate with one another. Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 02:33:08 -0400 From: "J. Colaco < jc>" <cola...@gmail.com> You are (as they say) in a class by yourself - even though, you should not be surprised at the support you will get from the saffron haters of Catholics in Goa and elsewhere. Mario responds: Sapna, I think you may be finding out that, at least on this topic, "Goan Intellectual" is a contradiction in terms:-)) Irritated, paranoid Christians is more like it:-)) Just kidding, JC, but you are hardly distinguishing yourself with the uncharacteristic and unsubstantiated comments like the one above, unless you know Sapna personally well enough to know she is in a class by herself. BTW, I consider you to be in a class by yourself, in a complimentary way, of course:-)) Secondly, I have no problem with Sapna's question, which some of you are blowing up out of all proportion given that the Inquisition in Goa was not a myth but a brutal reality and an unfortunate example of Christian fascism that Goan Catholics of today seem curiously ashamed of even though they had nothing to do with it and neither did any of the teachings in Christ-centered Christianity. Thirdly, "saffron haters of Catholics"??? I answered Sapna's question in a previous post in this thread in a supportive manner without being defensive and without wearing my saffron robes and red dot on my forehead:-)) In fact, I wrote as a practicing Catholic who is not afraid of the truth and can distinguish between the teachings of Christ and the atrocities that were committed in his name by Christian fanatics which had no resemblance to anything that Christ taught. Finally, we don't have to go back centuries to find inappropriate behavior by Christians, as we have seen in recent years. Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:33:46 +0530 From: Jason Keith Fernandes <jason.k.fernan...@gmail.com> Let me reiterate my apology. Yes, the last line was out of line. No debate there. to further this discussion though, perhaps we should not be making statement based on something like the Rough Guide. Its exactly that! the Rough Guide for Christ's sake! :-D How does one say that the Goa Inquisition was one of the worst in the world? Mario observes: Jason, I commend you for calming down and apologizing because your initial reaction was unbecoming and way out of line. However, you are continuing to be unnecessarily defensive and trying to obfuscate the un-Christian horror of the Inquisition by taking picayune issue with the Rough Guide and quibbling about whether the Goa Inquisition was the worst in the world. The point is not where Sapna read about it or whether it was one of the worst in the world, because that is a relative opinion that cannot be validated. The Inquisition is a historical fact, and it was nasty by any rational standard, and notorious because it was done in the name of Christ, who would have been horrified by the intentions and practices that took place during the Inquisition. Jason Keith wrote: WHy is there silence? perhaps because we dont want to discuss the issue? because it results only in the entire debate getting skewed. And we dont need right wing Hindus to skew the debate. the best skewers of the debate are Nationlist Catholics, Zionists, and Orieintalist/ racist Europeans. Each for their own reasons of being more Indian, for adding larger intellectual foundations for the zionist project, and the Euros who can reaffirm racial distinctions by saying how wrong it was to try to make INdians, who ought to be Hindu (and non-'western') into Christian and 'western'. in other words they should remain 'authentic'. Mario observes: Another gratuitous boatload of red herrings. Does avoiding an issue get it "unskewed"? So far the only Hindu from any wing in this thread has been Dr. Barad with a perfectly rational and civil response to Ignatius' comments. We have also not heard from a single Zionist, Orientalist or racist European. The only Nationalist Catholic would be me, and I am an American and have no interest in being any "more Indian" than anyone else. I have only argued on behalf of civility and the truth unless you can show me where I have skewed anything in my two posts so far in this thread. All the skewing I have seen so far ever since Sapna asked her questions, has been by angry and defensive Christians. Sapna wrote: I just want to clarify for those to whom it would make a difference that I am not Hindu. My father is Hindu, my mother Catholic, and I was confirmed as Catholic. I am not practicing, but nonetheless am well versed with the Bible and what it means to be 'Christian'. Mario responds: I stand corrected having been misled by your name. Sapna wrote: But I wish I hadn't written the post now, because I see there are many strong feelings about this issue... I am sorry I made my observation public, if it is to have any negative consequence whatsoever. Mario responds: Sapna, Oh, no! Please don't withdraw into a shell. We need more women with interesting, even controversial, views, questions and opinions on Goanet. You must have noticed that none of the women Goanetters participated in this discussion. I wonder why? If you are really interested in any issue that crosses your mind I would urge you to develop a thicker skin. You did nothing wrong and your question was not inappropriate for a curious non-Goan somewhat familiar with Goa. Honestly asked questions are never inappropriate, but some answers can be as we have seen in this thread. To be fair to most of those who responded to your question, the concern seemed to be whether the information about a dark period in Goan Christian history would be accurate and whether it would create discord. Accuracy about historical facts are always problematic and controversial because history depends on who is writing it. I reject the concern about discord because anti-Christians, if they are so disposed, can find a lot to be critical about from much more recent events than something that ended hundreds of years ago. Besides, Hindus, too, have several skeletons in their own closet, including writing the original manual on how to divide people based on an accident of birth and discriminate against one's fellow man for one's own benefit. Sapna wrote: On a separate note... I am curious about what Bernardo was referring to when he said it was illegal for me to live in Goa? I can only guess he meant that I was uninvited because I was not Goan. Mario responds: Bernardo, who does not even live in Goa, has this bee in his bonnet that anyone without Goan ancestry does not belong in Goa. Clearly this is poppycock, as I observed in my previous post. Though there are clearly many non-Goans exploiting and destroying the natural beauty of Goa for indiscriminate and short-run commercial gain, there are about as many, if not more, Goans who are participating in doing so. But its more facile to blame others. Sapna wrote: I say this because outsiders have brought a lot of good to the state as well, have they not? I think Goa now boasts some of the best restaurants and hotels in India (and/or the world?). Also, I think the reason some people move here other than the natural beauty, is a perceived acceptance of diversity. So that is something you should be proud of, and make the most out of, since pluralistic societies have shown immense prosperity in the developed world. Mario responds: Of course most of them have done a lot of good and I know several non-Goans who want to maintain the beauty of Goa just as much as most Goans. However, as you must also know, there are many prominent exceptions, who have plenty of help from some of the locals, who are exploiting the boom and the lax building standards and the corrupt politicians and are careless about preserving the best of Goa's natural beauty and historical significance, which can be done as other naturally beautiful places in other countries have demonstrated. If you've lived in Goa on and off for 20 years you must have noticed the rapid deterioration in many areas. Unfortunately, as I pointed out in another post, anyone who travels across India can see far more filth and ugly and inappropriate construction and reprehensible behavior, no matter where they go.
