Response; 1.If the poster chooses to live in denial of the evidence furnished by me in the documents provided by Prof Borges just because they are unpalatable to him and do not support his views, there is nothing more we can do about it. He is free to live in his world of dreams and fantasy. Who are we to deny him his enjoyment?
2. secondly, his asking me to provide historical evidence of my owns views ( which in his bird brained and juvenile way chooses to call speculations) should count as the Joke of the Month. All the evidence has already been provided in my previous posts from the documents which Prof Borges himself submitted. If he wants to a blind eye to them, we cannot help it. When he is cornered and unable to provide documentary evidence to support his Chinese Whispers akin quotes, in the ways of a canny and wily politician he tries to pass the buck and wants me to provide evidence to the contrary. It is like asking an innocent man to prove that he is not guilty. When he provided the quotes, he ought to be able to support them with evidence. Why is it so difficult for him to do so if he is confident in the source of his information? 3. I have placed before the poster several questions in my previous post. Why does the poster shy away and develop cold feet in answering them. Resorting to rhetoric and bombast is no substitute for sound argument. I repeat them again for his benefit: Quote: 3. If, for the sake of argument, we accept that Fr Jerome and Prof Mookerjee did press for not extending economic and social benefits to dalit christians during the debates or in the run up to the adoption of the Constitution, why was the Constitution adopted with the safeguards intact? Why was the Presidential Order issued barely 7 MONTHS later which excluded all other religions except hindus from availing of the benefits? What transpired during the intervening period from 26th January 1950 to 9th August 1950 for this Presidential Order to be issued? 4. Santosh has quoted M Madhu Chandra as saying: QUOTE In 1950 upon the representation of Christian leaders for not including Scheduled Caste Christians in Constitution (Scheduled Caste) Order 1950, the assurance from then the Prime Minister and President via letter dated 7 November 1950 and 17 December 1950 respectively were given. UNQUOTE ..........M. Madhu Chandra If the dalit christians were excluded based on the representation of Christian leaders, a) why did the Christian leaders protest and make a representation to the Prime Minister after the Presidential Order was issued? b) Why did the PM and President have to give any assurances? c) What were these assurances? d) Is it possible to access these two letters of 7 November 1950 and 17 December 1950? They would shed much light. I look forward to Santosh throwing more light rather than heat on this subject. When I ask these questions it is more with a keenness to acquire more knowledge rather than proving that I am right or the poster wrong. regards, Marshall * * *I am sorry I cannot do anything about the fact that the respondent below continues to engage in rhetoric and insults. I am interested in knowing how the constitutional notion of Scheduled Castes and tribes came into being in Indian history. In response to the said respondent's prior rhetorical question, Prof. Borges provided factual information and links to two debates of the Constituent Assembly. I provided facts reported by three genuinely well-informed professionals of different backgrounds, based on their own independent research - the first a Jesuit priest, scholar and professor (Fr. Izzo), the second a human rights activist (Madhu Chandra) and the third a journalist (Sunil Dasgupta). From the standpoint of an objective rational person all this information would be much more trustworthy and reliable compared to the long-winded interpretations, speculations, insinuations and rhetorical questions contained in the respondent's latest post appended below, especially, given the fact that the claims in his earlier posts in this thread were shown to be false. Therefore, in order to properly stack up his credibility against that of Fr. Izzo, Chandra and Dasgupta, I would kindly request him to provide historical evidence to support his own prior and current speculations. Now as far as my own task and interest are concerned I have accessed information that answers the following questions: 1. Were Dalits belonging to Christian and other religious minorities ever included in the Scheduled Castes list at any time before the Presidential Order of 1950, as the respondent seems to imply? 2. Did the Christian members of the Constituent Assembly petition, lobby, ask or insist that Dalit Christians be included in the Scheduled Castes list drawn up in the Presidential Order of 1950? (Did they object to, or recognize as unfair, the fact that Dalit Christians were not included in the Scheduled Castes list at any time before or after the Presidential Order was issued?) The answer to each of these questions is NO. Here is the evidence. 1. Scheduled castes were always recognized to include only Hindu Dalits even before 1950, and expressly exclude Christian Dalits. Please see this Scheduled Castes order of 1936: http://www.anagrasarkalyan.gov.in/compendium/part-1_page9-24.pdf Here is a quote: QUOTE 3. Notwithstanding anything in the last preceding paragraph— (a) No Indian Christian shall be deemed to be a member of a Scheduled Caste; UNQUOTE 2. Scheduled Castes were defined as "a section of the Hindu community" in the first Minority Rights Report in 1947, and accepted as an amendment in the assembly. Here is a quote regarding this in one of the assembly debates: QUOTE 1-A. The section of the Hindu community referred to as Scheduled Castes as defined in Schedule I to the Government of India Act, 1935, shall have the same rights and benefits which are herein provided for minorities specified in the Schedule to para. 1 UNQUOTE ......K. M. Munshi Please see: http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/debates/vol5p8b.htm 3. The fact that Scheduled Castes were recognized and accepted as distinct from Christians and other religious minorities by the members of the Constituent Assembly, including the Christian members is clear from the following quote of H. C. Mookherjee, the lead Christian representative, in one of the debate links provided by Prof. Borges: QUOTE ...let me point out once again that the Scheduled Castes have been given reservation not on grounds of religion at all; they form part and parcel of the Hindu Community, and they have given reservation apparently and clearly on grounds of their economic, social educational backwardness. UNQUOTE ......H. C. Mookherjee Please see: http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/790979/* **