I'm on Java. Unfortunately it feels like the appengine team went to solve bigger and more important problems before making the Java environment better.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Aleksei Rovenski < aleksei.roven...@gmail.com> wrote: > Rafael, > > I'm very curious are you running on Java or Python runtime? Or maybe you > tried both. It seems to me that Python developers are more happy with > Appengine performance... > > Aleksei > > четверг, 23 января 2014 г., 21:56:05 UTC+2 пользователь Rafael Sanches > написал: >> >> Jim, >> >> No comments on your comment. Have you read it in facebook headquarters? :) >> >> What would you do if you put all your savings in your startup and there's >> no more money in the bank? >> Logically, wouldn't it be good to just reduce the server costs from $10k >> to $1k? >> >> Have the best luck with your product, and I hope you arrive to the point >> where you have these kinds of problems. They are great problems to have. >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Jim <jeb6...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I would suggest that you need to consider the opportunity cost of the >>> time you spend diddling bits instead of building something of value to your >>> customers. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:23:31 PM UTC-6, Rafael Sanches wrote: >>> >>>> I'm the only engineer working on backend, so I pay $0 per year to >>>> configure, manage and monitor machines. Startups don't have cash to hire >>>> systems engineers. >>>> >>>> In my startup I'm an engineer, not a "systems engineer" or "software >>>> engineer" or "bathroom cleaner engineer". >>>> >>>> If people can build code complex code, why they can't build scripts to >>>> automate the cloud configuration? Most people have those already built from >>>> past jobs anyway. >>>> >>>> It seems that you are taking a defensive position from a strict >>>> engineer perspective. >>>> For a startup to succeed, you might find yourself doing tasks from >>>> cleaning bathrooms, sys admin, community management among other things. >>>> Paying more now so you don't get fired in the future might not be the >>>> best option for a startup. >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> rafa >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 5:24 AM, Jim <jeb6...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Rafa, >>>>> >>>>> You are correct that I have a lot of large corporate experience, >>>>> working for good sized commercial software houses. That's where I had the >>>>> pleasure of building these sorts of highly available, scalable, secure, >>>>> etc >>>>> platforms from the ground up to host products my teams built. That's why >>>>> I >>>>> know how hard, time consuming and expensive it can be to build something >>>>> that begins to approach what GAE offers. >>>>> >>>>> But I have also worked in two start-ups. One early in my career and >>>>> now for the past three years running my own. We're using GAE now and I >>>>> would not consider it 'expensive' because we do want and need the things >>>>> that it offers. I don't want to build on generic LAMP stack and be at the >>>>> mercy of a handful of machines in a rented data center and have to pay a >>>>> couple of systems engineers when I could pay application developers >>>>> instead >>>>> who are going to bring new functionality to my products. To me, new >>>>> functionality equals value...systems engineering is something I want to >>>>> outsource to Google. It's something they've proven themselves to be >>>>> incredibly good at. We're a very lean startup and I want ALL of our >>>>> resources focused either directly on our Customers or directly on software >>>>> functionality that will directly benefit our Customers. To me, anything >>>>> else is extraneous and will be outsourced to somebody who can do it >>>>> better. >>>>> In Austin, TX I can't even begin to hire a single really good systems >>>>> engineer for what I'm paying Google, and with our business model even when >>>>> we're blowing out our revenue projections we won't even be close then. >>>>> >>>>> But then that's me, our requirements, and our application profile. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not insulted, I'm just try to stimulate a more meaningful >>>>> conversation than blanket statements that don't take into account all of >>>>> the real factors involved in such a complex decision. By the way, you >>>>> never answered my questions about what your engineers cost and how that >>>>> impacts your capital issues. I have a hard time believing the time/value >>>>> your engineering staff spends setting up, configuring, managing and >>>>> monitoring machines doesn't exceed $48,000 per year. >>>>> >>>>> Is geographically dispersed essential? Well yeah, if you believe, >>>>> like I do, that you engineer things right from the beginning. I've been >>>>> building large, complex software products for a LONG time and I've found >>>>> that it's very hard to come back and "fix" or "re-do" things after the >>>>> momentum gets going. Once things get rolling there will always be many >>>>> competing demands and telling the CEO that you've got to put the brakes on >>>>> the product roadmap for six months so you can migrate to a different >>>>> stack/data-center can be a career-shortening conversation. If you >>>>> believe >>>>> your customers will demand a solution that is engineered for scalability >>>>> and resiliency and fault-tolerance, then running in distributed data >>>>> centers is essential. Maybe not back in the 1970's, but in this century >>>>> and decade anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Jim >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 4:33:38 PM UTC-6, Rafael Sanches wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jim, >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems you're talking from a point of view of a big corporation. >>>>>> Since snapchat didn't had big funding since short time ago, I was >>>>>> supposed >>>>>> we're talking about startups. Big corporations are another beast where >>>>>> server costs are irrelevant in it's sea of other useless costs and lazy >>>>>> people. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am talking from the point of view of a startup that struggles with >>>>>> cash flow and find itself obligated to raise capital just to pay server >>>>>> costs. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know why some people think I am insulting their family when I >>>>>> say that appengine is very expensive for high traffic apps. Can you give >>>>>> me >>>>>> an example where it's not expensive? I am giving my own because I've >>>>>> built >>>>>> high traffic services for appengine, aws, hetzner, rackspace etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is geographically dispersed services an essential feature for a >>>>>> startup? It's simple till you complicate it. >>>>>> >>>>>> thanks >>>>>> rafa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Jim <jeb6...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, I'm quite aware of the various cloud stacks out there and have >>>>>>> worked on projects using several of them including AWS and CloudStack. >>>>>>> Glad to see you're moving away from your $50 a month claim and it's >>>>>>> now at >>>>>>> 10 X $50 a month. Now let's talk about geographically dispersed >>>>>>> services >>>>>>> with automated fail-over. Then let's talk about what that good engineer >>>>>>> you have costs you. You really want to run your business on a platform >>>>>>> with a single engineer behind it? Does he/she get to sleep or go on >>>>>>> vacation? What happens when he/she quits? You sure that cheap little >>>>>>> hosting provider has the network bandwidth and resiliency you are going >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> need? Now triple your infrastructure to be able to handle the hoped-for >>>>>>> huge spike in volume. Now crunch the numbers again and tell me what the >>>>>>> savings really is. It ain't anywhere close to $3,950 a month, that I am >>>>>>> sure of. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 1:58:56 PM UTC-6, Rafael Sanches wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jim, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In 2014 a good engineer can create your own cloud infrastructure >>>>>>>> with 10 machines like the ones I suggested. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Again, I am not saying that I don't like appengine. In fact, I love >>>>>>>> it and that's why I stick with it. >>>>>>>> I am saying it's over priced to run a service like Snapchat. I >>>>>>>> don't think there's any argument there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kaan, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is my gift to you: https://gist.github.com/mufumbo/8547036 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It extends all of the appengine image features: "=s/-c" and >>>>>>>> includes the most useful one: "=h" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Depending on appengine's image serving is a limitation, since >>>>>>>> "vertical cropping" is extremely useful on many elegant websites. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For example, play around with: http://c1.picmix.net/61757192= >>>>>>>> s682=h300 or http://c1.picmix.net/61757192=s300=h600 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> By the way, another way to reduce server costs is to pay the $400 >>>>>>>> or $200 a month in support. >>>>>>>> That way you get access to discounted instance hours. It decreased >>>>>>>> our bill a bit and give access to a place to get feedback when >>>>>>>> appengine is >>>>>>>> having problems or when you need to tweak your scheduling and >>>>>>>> performance >>>>>>>> parameters that you don't have access from XML config. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> About three months ago I spent a whole month optimizing my servers >>>>>>>> to reduce the costs from $10k to $5k. Even now, I feel it's too >>>>>>>> overpriced >>>>>>>> for the performance it's delivering. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> thanks >>>>>>>> rafa >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Kaan Soral <kaan...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think he gets it much more than you give him credit for >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hetzner example, as I interpret it, and think about it myself, is >>>>>>>>> about the price of computing/ram/bandwith, although it's not >>>>>>>>> comparable >>>>>>>>> 1:1, it's important to know how cheap computing and hosting has >>>>>>>>> become over >>>>>>>>> the years, especially in this last 5-10 years >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It was really interesting to hear about your story Rafael, it was >>>>>>>>> the approximate reason why I started this discussion, to learn and >>>>>>>>> speculate about major services >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The 2000$ to 300$ cdn comparison is interesting, however no other >>>>>>>>> service that I know of matches the extreme capabilities of google >>>>>>>>> images >>>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>> I use the =s/-c resizing/cropping extensively, that's why I could >>>>>>>>> never easily replace appengine, or the cdn >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You seem to have lived my worst case scenario, going out of money >>>>>>>>> and having to ask others for money. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Anyway if you don't mind it would be great to learn more about >>>>>>>>> your product/story, but I'm guessing it's better to keep things as >>>>>>>>> private >>>>>>>>> as possible :) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 9:16:18 PM UTC+2, Jim wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1970's? What on earth about my post made you think of the >>>>>>>>>> 1970's? My description of geographically redundant, web based >>>>>>>>>> applications? Please indeed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The link you provided is for a LAMP hosting service... basically >>>>>>>>>> what I described in my third scenario about. That's >>>>>>>>>> apples-vs-oranges as >>>>>>>>>> compared to GAE. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I suggest you consult with the Application Architects where you >>>>>>>>>> work and politely ask them to describe the differences to you. >>>>>>>>>> Clearly >>>>>>>>>> nobody here is getting through to you and I don't have the time or >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> inclination. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:35:13 AM UTC-6, Rafael Sanches >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Guys, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Please, we're not in 1970 anymore. There is no argue that >>>>>>>>>>> appengine is the most expensive hosting on earth and possibly the >>>>>>>>>>> universe. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My company spend $4000 a month with appengine. We could host the >>>>>>>>>>> same service with $50 in a more powerful environment: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produktmatrix/rootserver-pr >>>>>>>>>>> oduktmatrix-ex<http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hetzner.de%2Fen%2Fhosting%2Fproduktmatrix%2Frootserver-produktmatrix-ex&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHB4pohCO2ZKGcxoTG5sY0nc6pvDw> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With $300 we could make it redundant and more reliable and >>>>>>>>>>> faster than appengine. >>>>>>>>>>> A dedicated server is also more reliable, because of appengine >>>>>>>>>>> infamous "hicupps" due to its scheduling system and instance boot >>>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>> In one of my services I rent a rack with 20 spaces and it's >>>>>>>>>>> filled with only 10 severs. It means I can scale my servers with 10 >>>>>>>>>>> more. >>>>>>>>>>> That configuration costs $1000. >>>>>>>>>>> Please, pay attention for 10 dedicated quad-core with 32GB of >>>>>>>>>>> ram. How much would you pay in appengine for that type of >>>>>>>>>>> throughput? I did >>>>>>>>>>> the calculations: $60k. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Please, it's incomparable price wise. There's no argue and let's >>>>>>>>>>> not go there :) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> thanks >>>>>>>>>>> rafa >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Jim <jeb6...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I've seen many variations of this statement, "Google App Engine >>>>>>>>>>>> is expensive!", and it always strikes me as a bit off. I supppose >>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>> depends on your perspective and your requirements. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> For the past three years I've been running a small start-up >>>>>>>>>>>> building a SaaS analytics application. For the prior 25 years or >>>>>>>>>>>> so I >>>>>>>>>>>> built enterprise apps for some well-known software houses. The >>>>>>>>>>>> last 12 >>>>>>>>>>>> years I was building SaaS-based software products serving top-tier >>>>>>>>>>>> global >>>>>>>>>>>> financial institutions. During that time I worked on projects >>>>>>>>>>>> where we >>>>>>>>>>>> built, from the ground up, 2 different web-based solutions which >>>>>>>>>>>> wound up >>>>>>>>>>>> serving tens-of-thousands of end-users and very large volumes of >>>>>>>>>>>> system-to-system (B2B type) transaction volumes. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> When we created our infrastructure for these systems we needed >>>>>>>>>>>> multiple geographically dispersed data centers, high levels of >>>>>>>>>>>> fault-tolerance within any given data center, n-tier architecture, >>>>>>>>>>>> secure >>>>>>>>>>>> systems, scalable databases and front-end servers, system, >>>>>>>>>>>> security and >>>>>>>>>>>> network monitoring and administration, etc. When you spec that >>>>>>>>>>>> all out >>>>>>>>>>>> from scratch, you will have a hard time doing it for less than >>>>>>>>>>>> several >>>>>>>>>>>> hundred thousand dollars capex with big ongoing opex expense. Any >>>>>>>>>>>> growth >>>>>>>>>>>> beyond your initial headroom will require additional capex >>>>>>>>>>>> expenditure and >>>>>>>>>>>> incremental ongoing opex. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Depending on the profile of your application and the system >>>>>>>>>>>> load, at some point you will pass the threshold of it being >>>>>>>>>>>> cheaper to >>>>>>>>>>>> build and maintain your own equivalent infrastructure, but that >>>>>>>>>>>> threshold >>>>>>>>>>>> is very, very high. So it makes me think people who say GAE is >>>>>>>>>>>> 'expensive' >>>>>>>>>>>> are not making a comparison such as this. Maybe they don't really >>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>> everything that GAE offers. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Or perhaps they are comparing GAE to other cloud offerings such >>>>>>>>>>>> as AWS? Amazon's pricing doesn't seem to be radically different >>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>> Google's to me, for similar services. And given that Amazon's PaaS >>>>>>>>>>>> solution is not yet as complete at GAE, I think that any complete >>>>>>>>>>>> appliation built on AWS is going to require some level of >>>>>>>>>>>> system-engineering. System engineers are not cheap. One of the >>>>>>>>>>>> things we >>>>>>>>>>>> like about GAE is that, at this point in our corporate evolution, >>>>>>>>>>>> we can >>>>>>>>>>>> focus entirely on our Customers and our Software and not spend >>>>>>>>>>>> money or >>>>>>>>>>>> time configuring hardware, OS and other "low level" stuff that we >>>>>>>>>>>> (as >>>>>>>>>>>> application software guys) don't want to mess with. There are >>>>>>>>>>>> very real >>>>>>>>>>>> hard and soft monetary benefits to this. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe when people say "expensive" they mean as compared to >>>>>>>>>>>> other "cloud" offerings that are more along the lines of rented >>>>>>>>>>>> physical or >>>>>>>>>>>> virtual machines. Yes, some of these can be cheap compared to >>>>>>>>>>>> GAE. But >>>>>>>>>>>> these are really apples-to-oranges comparisons when you consider >>>>>>>>>>>> all the >>>>>>>>>>>> things you need to provision a global, "utility-grade" >>>>>>>>>>>> (aspirationally, >>>>>>>>>>>> anyway) SaaS offering. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So I guess this post is a long-winded way of me saying "GAE >>>>>>>>>>>> Expensive? Really? What exactly do you mean by that? Compared >>>>>>>>>>>> to what?" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, January 20, 2014 4:19:54 AM UTC-6, coto wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We all should be surprised, because Google App Engine is very >>>>>>>>>>>>> expensive!! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, January 19, 2014 5:23:13 AM UTC-3, alex wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why were you surprised? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to google-appengi...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>> google-a...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group >>>>>>>>>>>> /google-appengine. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/grou >>>>>>>>>>>> ps/opt_out. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Google App Engine" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to google-appengi...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to google-a...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group >>>>>>>>> /google-appengine. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Google App Engine" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to google-appengi...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to google-a...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Google App Engine" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to google-appengi...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to google-a...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Google App Engine" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to google-appengi...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to google-a...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Google App Engine" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. 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