Having posted earlier excerpts from Kavita Krishnan's Tehelka article with the link, I was bit disappointed to see no discussion at all here. Now, under a different thread though, same topic re-appears but with a request from the authors to endorse a demand to reformulate the bill. After following the fierce debates extending to 50 posts by several distinguished thinkers and activists, one ends up seeing sort of irreconcilable personal/political bitterness between people who are either unable to make any agreement or quite unwilling to listen to the others' point.
I would rather not miss here a few points, which I think transpires as most obvious:- 1.The way in which WRB in its present form is being objected by the OBC leadership is not only disgusting to most people who want to end the gender discrimination, but it also it exposes their hard core 'khap panchayat' mentality. 2.The infamous statement of Lalu (referring to Rabri in particular and women in general) in the context of WRB, seems to mean that Indian men and women would/should ever be proud of patriarchy. If that is the case,why should we have a WRB at all, let alone its present form? 3.Someone who swears by the Mayavati brand of dalit politics (rejuvenated with a 'sarvajan' formula that would certainly provide more statues for dalits but more power for the feudalistic elements and the Corporates..?!) has condescendingly admitted that he is a supporter of patriarchy. He has no appreciation for the fact that thanks to the WRB in its present form, the representation of SC/ST women in the Indian Parliament could go up to 41 or more. 4.The argument that the already pending issue of huge under representation of Muslims in the Parliament is bound to be aggravated with the activation of the WRB merits lot of serious thought. Therefore, the view that this issue is being raised all on a sudden to delay the presentation of the WRB and out of context, becomes equally untenable, irrespective of whether it is being raised by a gang of misogynist male Muslims, or by others having genuine interest in empowering Muslim women. On Apr 7, 10:37 pm, ranju radha <ranjura...@gmail.com> wrote: > like in the typical brahminical kafila style it s time to say pls close the > thread. it s no longer useful unless we take out our daggers and jump into > the site of civil war.. "upper" casteism cannot be countered with war of > words alone ! > quit brahministan ! > > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 10:39 PM, sukla.sen <sukla....@gmail.com> wrote: > > Quote > > Neither your scientific rationality and mathematics on the one hand nor > > the "probabilty theories" and "common sense" on the other will be > > sufficient to explain the shameful situation of muslim representation of > > Muslims in the parliament after 60 years of independence and the present > > Dalit/Adivasi represention that you project happened only because of > > reservation... > > Unquote > > > What an earth shattering discovery! > > Sheer stupidity placed on pedestal as ideology! > > > The arguments referred to were never ever meant "to explain the shameful > > situation of muslim representation of Muslims in the parliament after 60 > > years of independence"! > > These were meant to show how, contrary to the obstinate lies being peddled, > > the women's reservation bill, even in its present form, if enacted would > > straightaway benefit the Dalit/adivasi women; and also better the chances of > > Muslim/OBC women as compared to the situation that obtains today. > > > Hence the persistent attempt to scuttle the bill in the name of promoting > > the interests of Dalit/adivasi/OBC/Muslim women is nothing but a > > contemptible fraud perpetrated on those whose interests are being flaunted > > as the grand alibi. > > > Sukla > > > On 7 April 2010 22:13, Afthab Ellath <aftha...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> Mr Sen, > > >> I think your "common sense" embedded in casteist mindset is the very > >> problem because It doent allow any reflection... > > >> Neither your scientific rationality and mathematics on the one hand nor > >> the "probabilty theories" and "common sense" on the other will be > >> sufficient to explain the shameful situation of muslim representation of > >> Muslims in the parliament after 60 years of independence and the present > >> Dalit/Adivasi represention that you project happened only because of > >> reservation... > > >> The same brahminical and patriarchical political parties that became > >> "feminist" overnight with this bill, that ensured this situation will do > >> everything to make sure that proposed benefits will not go to the "other" > >> women... Asking them to wait for ever is a mockery... > > >> This is very simple... But one should be able to go beyond the brahmanical > >> thinking to understand that... > > >> I feel really bored to listening to your repeatations.. So let us call it > >> a quit.... > > >> Afthab Ellath > > >> On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Sukla Sen <sukla....@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> The same lies are being repeatedly and obstinately peddled. > > >>> There are two distinct categories here. Not one. > > >>> The representation of Dalit/adivasi women will straightway go up to (at > >>> least) 40 or 41(considering only the "reserved" seats and assuming nil > >>> representation from the unreserved category) from the current level > >>> without > >>> any hitch whatever. > > >>> As regards the OBC/Muslim women, they will then have to contest only with > >>> women of other categories, in so far as the "reserved" seats for women > >>> under > >>> "general" categories are concerned (i.e. 140 approx). For the unreserved > >>> general seats (282 approx.) they will of course have to compete with (i) > >>> women of other categories, (ii) men of other categories and (iii) also men > >>> of their own castes/communities. > >>> Currently they are to compete with (i) women of other categories, (ii) > >>> men of other categories and (iii) also men of their own castes/communities > >>> for all the unreserved seats (422 approx.). > >>> So the probability rating of getting nominated/elected very significantly > >>> goes up as the number of competitors very significantly goes down. > >>> That's a bit of simple mathematics. > >>> Peddling of malicious lies can hardly alter that. > > >>> As regards the other point, similarly, once there is reservation for > >>> women, one can start fighting for special reservations within that > >>> category. > >>> Not that the outcome is guaranteed. > >>> But that much opportunity opens up (for further fight). > >>> It does not require any "secret deal", just a bit of common sense free of > >>> malicious projects. > > >>> Sukla > > >>> On 7 April 2010 17:08, Afthab Ellath <aftha...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>> >> The others will also have a much better chance to be elected from out > >>>> the women's quota than the situation stands today. > > >>>> Good Joke... Please enlighten me Mr Sen, then why Dalit/Adivasi/Muslim > >>>> men are not getting chance to contest and get elected from the > >>>> general(male) > >>>> seats? Why the women's quota is special to give great opportunities for > >>>> Dalit/Adivasi/Muslim women? > > >>>> >> Apart from the fact that it opens up the scope for fighting for > >>>> sub-quotas for minority/OBC women within the women's quota in future. > > >>>> What are the chances, Mr Sen? Have you made any secret deals? > > >>>> Afthab Ellath > > >>>> On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Sukla Sen <sukla....@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>> The "cause of Dalit/minority/OBC/adivasi women" will be served only by > >>>>> supporting the Women's Reservation Bill. > > >>>>> Dalit/adivasi women will immediately stand to gain for there will be > >>>>> seats reserved for them. There will be 33% reservation for women in > >>>>> case of > >>>>> "general" seats (33% out of 77.5% of total) and also seats reserved for > >>>>> SC/ST (33% out of 22.5% of total). > >>>>> The others will also have a much better chance to be elected from out > >>>>> the women's quota than the situation stands today. > >>>>> Ap[art from the fact that it opens up the scope for fighting for > >>>>> sub-quotas for minority/OBC women within the women's quota in future. > > >>>>> It's just a nasty conspiracy to cheat and oppress > >>>>> "Dalit/minority/OBC/adivasi women" in the name of defending their > >>>>> interests. > >>>>> What a ghastly joke! > > >>>>> Sukla > > >>>>> On 7 April 2010 16:29, ranju radha <ranjura...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>>> "kavita", > >>>>>> my bias is clear just as urs > >>>>>> but it is unfortunate that even an activist women like u cannot think > >>>>>> of supporting the cause of Dalit/minority/OBC/adivasi women.. > >>>>>> if u cannot be relied on how can a patriarchal fellow being like me > >>>>>> who never claim to do activism can be trusted.. > >>>>>> if u cant condemn Brinda-Sushma caste women mafia, why should u expect > >>>>>> me condmn lalu and mulayam.. at least they hav some mass base than > >>>>>> these > >>>>>> lady brigades > > >>>>>> and the vivek kumar episode is not a secret story > >>>>>> we all know what happened on that day > >>>>>> and how "radicalism" turned casteist.. none can forget that.. > >>>>>> best > > >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Kavita Krishnan < > >>>>>> kavitakris...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>>>> "Ranju", > >>>>>>> You should ask prof Vivek Kumar whether this organisation "mocked" > >>>>>>> him - he is one of the most supportive teachers now for the campaign > >>>>>>> (a > >>>>>>> campaign conducted mainly by this organisation along with other groups > >>>>>>> including left groups and Dalit groups like UDSF). Your bias is > >>>>>>> obviously > >>>>>>> now exposed as a political and anti-left one, not as any genuine > >>>>>>> concern for > >>>>>>> the issue. That's why you cannot even appreciate student movements > >>>>>>> when they > >>>>>>> fight to defend reservations, because they upset your jaundiced view > >>>>>>> of how > >>>>>>> ALL left outfits are "upper caste" and therefore casteist... > >>>>>>> Anyway I notice that you have avoided condemning Laloo's and > >>>>>>> Mulayam's disgusting anti-woman remarks - even when the target is an > >>>>>>> OBC > >>>>>>> woman like Rabri Devi! > > >>>>>>> On 7 April 2010 06:07, ranju radha <ranjura...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> "perhaps you should know that the student organisation where I > >>>>>>>> started my political life - AISA -" > > >>>>>>>> i think this is the same organisation, the members of which who > >>>>>>>> claims to be radicals, always make it a point to mock at dalit > >>>>>>>> students and > >>>>>>>> faculty members at JNU, right? (if one can remember the Vivek kumar > >>>>>>>> incident > >>>>>>>> and scores of other incidents where dalits hav been stereotyped and > >>>>>>>> so > >>>>>>>> on...no need to mention how ur intellectual world marginalises the > >>>>>>>> dalit > >>>>>>>> voice out there) > > >>>>>>>> >>on why cant Ranju Radha speak for OBC women? > >>>>>>>> first of all, why do u think that Rabri or mayavati need some one > >>>>>>>> else for them to articulate? They have their own voice and are > >>>>>>>> capable of > >>>>>>>> articulating. > >>>>>>>> and why not people like u who claim to articulate for "women" not > >>>>>>>> doing tht? U attack Lalu or Mulayam for opposing the Bill, but not > >>>>>>>> for being > >>>>>>>> anti-OBC women. > >>>>>>>> Just Think, why cant u, as a woman, think that > >>>>>>>> OBC/DAlit/muslim/Adiavsis women are also women and they should also > >>>>>>>> get > >>>>>>>> equal opportunities and representation? why u r unable to make a > >>>>>>>> single > >>>>>>>> argument in favour of thse women? pls be self reflexive.. > >>>>>>>> U got a space and just think how u r utilising it? and for whom? Why > >>>>>>>> u r not there for Rabri or Mayavati? > >>>>>>>> and why is it that ur radical left self could not recognise the > >>>>>>>> reality of caste and religion in india? > >>>>>>>> why all ur radicalisms end up in the brahmincal bandwagon? > > >>>>>>>> WRB really exposed all tall claims on "women" > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Kavita Krishnan < > >>>>>>>> kavitakris...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> perhaps you should know that the student organisation where I > >>>>>>>>> started my political life - AISA - is at the forefront of a > >>>>>>>>> struggle to > >>>>>>>>> ensure implementation of OBC reservations among students as well as > >>>>>>>>> SC/ST > >>>>>>>>> and OBC quotas among faculty in JNU - and also in > > ... > > read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. To post to this group, send an email to greenyo...@googlegroups.com. 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