Hi Bill,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf 
> Of William Herrin
> Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 4:16 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [GROW] Operational experience with cache based mapping ID
> 
> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 4:58 AM, PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I meant that the working set is extracted/derived from the 
> BGP routing
> > database.
> >
> > To remove the confusion, I suggest to consider i) pull from local
> > database (e.g. BGP RIB) - one could refer to local pull, 
> ii) pull from
> > remote databases (e.g. DNS) - one could refer to remote 
> pull, and as I
> > stated in my previous post iii) "hybrid pull-push" to cover 
> the case of
> > proactive cases.
> >
> > Would that work for you ?
> 
> Hi Dimitri,
> 
> Not really, no.
> 
> Are you aware of any examples of a cache coupled with a BGP RIB?
> Generally we see a full database conversion to produce the local FIB
> and we see direct queries for diagnostics such as a looking glass. On
> occasion we also see defined database subsets propagated towards a
> peering-only router. None of these activities exhibit the
> characteristics commonly understood to be a cache.

Cisco Express Forwarding (CEF) to give one of the best known example. 

> If no such system exists, we can hardly report on its 
> operational properties.
>
> The key elements of the matrix seem to be:
> 
> * Pull, pull with extra, speculative push.
> 
> All caching systems exhibit pull, pull with extra or both. Some also
> have speculative push.
> 
> Example of pull: ARP request and response.
> Example of pull with extra: DNS request and response with 
> "additional" section.
> Example of speculative push: cache page invalidation due to a write to
> another CPU's cache in a multi-CPU system.

No difference here with the initial segmentation proposed, you can add a
pull with metadata but there is no fundamental difference. 
 
> * Local database, remote database.
> 
> The major difference between a local database and a remote database is
> that lookups to a local database are expected to succeed with a high
> enough probability of success that it can be considered a
> critical-stop failure when they don't succeed.
>
> Example of a local database: DRAM on a computer.
> Example of a remote database: DNS.

So, basically we have local and remote databases. Something different
from the above proposal ?
This said local dabases do not resume to DRAM any Local Information Base
can be considered (the case with cache entries derived BGP routing
entries is a good example). 

> * Central database, distributed database.
> 
> Example of a central database: A SQL server.
> Example of a distributed database: Virtual memory: multiple swap files
> on different hard disks.
> 
> Note that some virtual memory architectures treat DRAM as a cache for
> virtual memory while others treat DRAM as one element in a distributed
> database.
> 
> For the former, the swap must be at least as large as the DRAM and the
> swap page is allocated at the same time as the DRAM page. In the
> latter, space in the swap file is not allocated until you want to
> remove a page from DRAM.

I fail to see why we would have to consider non-colocated central
databases for a networking system that is by definition distributed -
afaik the document does not intend to cover (e.g. file) caching for
centralized IT systems.

> > -> Associativity (Direct mapping, Fully/N-Way/Skewed)
> 
> Can you offer examples of associativity outside of CPU caches? The
> ones you've mentioned here are all very specific to issues that arise
> when trying to deal with mapping CPU cache pages to DRAM pages.

A routing cache differs from a DRAM because the former only requires
Read from the Forwarding engine while the latter supports R/W from the
CPU. The application (routing) makes also the system specific wrt to the
dynamics of the routing table compared to the DRAM-CPU system. 

Other than this DRAM-CPU and routing cache-RIB system are both driven by
associativity, replacement and pre-load/pre-fetch

Regards,
-dimitri.
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
> 
> 
> -- 
> William D. Herrin ................ [email protected]  [email protected]
> 3005 Crane Dr. ...................... Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/>
> Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
> 
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