Hi Rick,
I understand your pain, those organizations like all behemoths get tied up
in collecting money and making a gesture once a year for when collection plate,
I mean date, comes due.
I have run into the same issues and each time I write my own app to resolve
those issues. In other words do it myself.
I had to deal with the government that has millions of dollars spent to
help the blind and discover that money is only use for those hired to see it
implemented.
I was given a computer after taking them to court and a old, large, but
good, Dek Talk synthesizer which was designed to even hold the screen above
it's box lid.
No screen reader program supplied, just the equipment to get it to talk if
some wand is waved over it.
So, I got the MSDOS bible book in text form, but my father read the stuff
to me that was needed for interrupts.
I wrote my own screen reader program just using that small amount of
information. I did take a one semester course in Assembly MASM and the teacher
kept asking me for help.
So, anger when vented in the right direction, giving extra energy, can be
very useful, but you have to also be very resourceful.
Hand in there, Bruce
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 6:03 AM
Subject: Re: WE and Advanced Math and Science Symbols
Hi Again:
Back googling I see where google doesnt support mathml and now
InternetExplorer11 doesnt allow plugin extensions which means MathPlayer wont
work on it either.
MathPlayer looks like they were the most sophisticated user of mathml
including software to create and work with advanced math products but looks
like accessibility is starting to be eliminated from the mainstream product
lines of the big companies.
This is the general trend lately from what I've seen in the programming
community as well.
There are people with deep pockets at NFB and ACB but they arent making much
noise these days while the frog slowly boils.
Anyway, I am pissed, frustrated and dropping this thread since I dont like
getting mad.
When you get mad you either fish or cut bait - I am cutting bait and if the
blind youth end up back in homes for the blind listening to books on tape that
is of their own doing.
I am 66 and it wont matter to me in a few years anyway.
Rick USA
----- Original Message -----
From: RicksPlace
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: WE and Advanced Math and Science Symbols
Hi Guys:
Well, I ended up back with the mathml xml based articles. I have no idea
how well they are supported out there, from what I've seen not very well for
the vast majority of sites I've visited and Google says they have no plans to
support it in their browser anytime soon, they actually had it and dropped it.
There is support, or was support, in IE and Firefox I think but there were
problems with IE and firefox did not implement it fully as far as I read in a
few overview type articles.
To use mathml requires a plug-in, not sure microsoft supports them anymore,
or some other type of third party software which is sort of getting out there
for something that should just be a part of accessibility in the first place.
In other words, however the equations are rendered I should think it the
function of a screen reader to read it correctly based on at least one or 2 of
the major formats ie LaTex or mathml etc... and I dont think WindowEyes does
that and I dont know anything about the other screen readers but my guess is
they dont do it either.
Perhaps it would be possible to create a script for the LaTex formats but
after going through the w3c stuff on mathml I wouldnt have a clue on designing
a script to even attempt to translate that stuff.
So what is going on? MathML is suppose to be the standard but nobody really
wants to support it and it is way too complicated for a simple guy like me to
try and work with.
So I dont expect any improved accessibility unless Microsoft implements it
since Google is not going, or wernt, going to do it and others are starting to
fall back on the other methods of rendering.
Now that html5 has tags for mathml some supporters say it will start up
again but where is it in the news for the new releases of various products?
Rick USA
----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan C. Cohn
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: WE and Advanced Math and Science Symbols
You might want to look at Nemith code, a braille way of interpretscienfic
notation.
Best wishes,
Jonathan
On Mar 8, 2014, at 10:54 AM, RicksPlace <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Again:
Googling I found these tags are related to font definitions.
Several versions are mentioned in a couple of articles so far:
Mathematical Notation: LaTeX, Mathematica, HTML Entities, Unicode
Do you know if these are a standard font thingy and should either my
browser or WindowEyes be automatically picking them up and speaking them in the
correct manner?
Perhaps my browser is too old, not sure.
Rick USA
----- Original Message -----
From: RicksPlace
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: WE and Advanced Math and Science Symbols
Hi Guys:
Thought Id start with Wikipedia since it covers allot of general
descriptions - not a teaching tool but an explanitory tool.
Now, symbols seem to be represented by some kind of standardized use
of tags.
Do you recognize the use of the tags below as a standardized
methodology of some sort and, if so, what is it called?
I put in a few examples so someone might recognize something.
<BeginSamples>
Vector notation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
the common
typographic convention
is upright boldface type, as in
\mathbf{v}
OK guys here they are just displaying {V} but use a prefix tag:
\mathbf
...
Another example:
or unwieldy, vectors are often represented with
right-pointing arrow notation or harpoons
above their names, as in
\vec{v}
Here they use a tag:
\vec
before the actual math of {v}
...
Another example:
A rectangular vector in
\mathbb{R}^n
can be specified using an ordered
set
of components, enclosed in either parentheses or angle brackets.
In a general sense, an n-dimensional vector v
can be specified in either of the following forms:
\mathbf{v} = (v_1, v_2, \dots, v_{n - 1}, v_n)
\mathbf{v} = \langle v_1, v_2, \dots, v_{n - 1}, v_n \rangle
Where v1, v2, …, vn − 1, vn are the components of v.
Matrix notation
[
edit
]
A rectangular vector in
\mathbb{R}^n
can also be specified as a row or column
matrix
containing the ordered set of components. A vector specified as a
row matrix is
known as a
row vector
; one specified as a column matrix is known as a
column vector
.
Again, an n-dimensional vector
\mathbf{v}
can be specified in either of the following forms using matrices:
\mathbf{v} = \left[ \begin{matrix} v_1 & v_2 & \cdots & v_{n - 1} &
v_n \end{matrix}
\right] = \left( \begin{matrix} v_1 & v_2 & \cdots & v_{n - 1} & v_n
\end{matrix}
\right)
\mathbf{v} = \left[ \begin{matrix} v_1 \\ v_2 \\ \vdots \\ v_{n - 1}
\\ v_n \end{matrix}
\right]= \left( \begin{matrix} v_1 \\ v_2 \\ \vdots \\ v_{n - 1} \\
v_n \end{matrix}
\right)
Where v1, v2, …, vn − 1, vn are the components of v
. In some advanced contexts, a row and a column vector have different
meaning; see
covariance and contravariance of vectors
.
Unit vector notation
[
edit
]
A rectangular vector in
\mathbb{R}^3
(or fewer dimensions, such as
\mathbb{R}^2
where vz
below is zero) can be specified as the sum of the scalar multiples
of the components
of the vector with the members of the standard
basis
in
\mathbb{R}^3
. The basis is represented with the
unit vectors
\boldsymbol{\hat{\imath}} = (1, 0, 0)
,
\boldsymbol{\hat{\jmath}} = (0, 1, 0)
, and
\boldsymbol{\hat{k}} = (0, 0, 1)
.
A three-dimensional vector v can be specified in the following form,
using unit vector
notation:
\mathbf{v} = v_x \boldsymbol{\hat{\imath}} + v_y
\boldsymbol{\hat{\jmath}} + v_z
\boldsymbol{\hat{k}}
Where vx, vy, and vz are the magnitudes of the components of v.
Polar vectors
[
edit
]
wiki/File:CircularCoordinates.svg
It goes on to other vectors for circles etc...
<EndOfSamples>
Rick USA
----- Original Message -----
From: LB
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: WE and Advanced Math and Science Symbols
Hi Rick,
I guess having standard symbols for the math, then splitting
each up, isolating them, then using a graphics label for each, store them in
your set file and such, then go from there. Just a thought, but seems like a
simple way to do it.
Most equations use the sup script and such for integrals and
can be messy at times but not impossible. But think standard symbols may be a
problem at the publishers end. But in a set file you can sort them out based on
the publishers usage.
Most equations use hyperbolic math for nothing goes in a
straight line in physics. That can result in lots of funny math. But keep in
mind that all particles are waves and you can always wave back...:)
The reality of our universe is all stuff is on a plain and that
plain is infinite in nature, in other words take a book and stack it's pages on
into infinity and each page is a plain, but so small you could never find it,
but when trying to get them apart you kind of get a nuclear bomb, for they do
not want to be bothered and have the strength to prove it.
touch one part of that thin sheet and it responds back some
where, the spooky thing Einstein's discovered in relativity. It is like
watching a insect on the surface of a lake or body of water and watch it
vibrate...surface tension.
Enough about god and where he is, he is just every where. A
part of each sheet stacked forever.
Bruce
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 6:46 AM
Subject: WE and Advanced Math and Science Symbols
Hi:
What is it about screen readers where they have so much trouble
reading advanced math and, or, science characters?
For example, what about the Calcus symbols or the standard ones
often used in describing the EM Field variables?
Has anyone ever done anything trying to write a script for say
either a book reader or even internet pages to make the equations read well?
I have been looking at many sites lately related to quantum
mechanics and light and found many, all?, sites using equations where either I
get a line of characters that dont make sense to me or a blank space where a
given symbol, image?, is located within the equations.
I know there are third party packages that might, repeat might,
work perhaps with braille but why cant a screen reader like WindowEyes with
it's attendant dictionaries be used to read these pages or books?
I am wondering if the pages or software could be scripted in some
way to make advanced math and science equations readable with WindowEyes.
Just a consideration at this point and not even a thought of
being a scripting project but just the question of why it hasent been done by
the screen reader companies and if anyone has ever tried to script something to
enable it for WindowEyes in the past.
Rick USA
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