Everytime i read posts from you lot at Apache i feel more conviced this thing is going to be one huge success.
I cant imagine how convincing your salesmen must be !! (If you indeed did have salesment to market). On 5/13/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I didn't cc Gerry - I assume he's subscribed. > > On May 11, 2005, at 6:22 PM, Gerry Steele wrote: > > > I'm a big fan of the Apache foundation but this is one product I'm > > not too > > sure is such a good idea as of yet for reasons several: > > > > > >>> Deprecated or non deprecated, we want Harmony to pass the TCK, so > >>> > >>>> whatever the TCK wants us to do, we'll do it. > >>>> > > > > > > I hope you understand what sticking to the TCK entails. When it > > comes to > > implementing GUI stuff for instance, your platform will have to > > fully copy > > the official JVM's Swing/AWT widgets and all other details in order > > for the > > automation and robot driven tests to pass. The JCK testbase for > > tiger is > > immense. To get it setup and run is a skill on its own. To get it > > to pass > > all tests takes a serious am mount of tweaking and a noteable > > knowledge of > > the javatest harness. It will require implementations on things as > > extensive > > as CORBA and RMI. We would need passive agents, tname servers etc. > > Indeed. We face the same thing with the J2EE TCK. It's a lot of > work, but we've proven that it can be done in the Apache environment. > > > > > Also, when running the TCK bear in mind that you'll have to run the > > harness > > with the Sun VM. > > > > I'm not sure about the particular extent of the testsuite provided > > with the > > TCK you guys are talking about (if there is interest can find out > > more), but > > the JCK, which is basically a TCK for the entire J2SE jre and jdk > > will be > > going on impossible to pass for an alternative implmentation as > > everything > > is written with the Sun JDK/JRE in mind and test cases are adapted > > in ways > > that will create an infinite unpredictable series of problems when > > trying to > > adapt your code. > > I believe that you may be mistaken, or it's just a problem of > phrasing :) I'm sure that any tests that are for specific extra- > specification Sun-specific behavior will be added to the exception > list and therefore not have to pass. We've run into a few things > like this w/ the TCK for J2EE. For me, they are just TCK > implementation mistakes, rather than any requirement to have Sun > implementations as part of the tested code. > > > > > Another reason is that I'm not quite sure I see the point. It will > > take 4-5 > > years or more to even come close to a product like tiger. Sun are > > already > > working heavily on mustang and dolphin (to a lesser degree on the > > latter). > > As well as this, sun research have many projects looking at the > > future of > > the Java VM such as the Barcelona project which will drastically > > change the > > implementation of the JVM. For instance to make it more network > > orientated > > or to improve resource sharing. > > It's clear that Sun does put a lot of effort into this. But don't > underestimate what an open source community can do. > > > > > The latter things (which are yet to see real sun implementation) > > might be > > something you guys might then want to take advantage of in order to > > leverage > > a selling point of Harmony. Without something like that it's just > > another > > attempt at a VM that will be playing catch-up forever. > > We'll see :) > > > > > Also, don't forget about quality. Sun put a serious amount of money > > and > > manpower into ensuring the quality and compatibility of the JVM. A > > lot of > > corporations depend on this. They have a regular update release > > cycle. For > > instance we are currently working on 1.3.1_16, 1.4.2_09, 5.0_04 & > > 5.0_05. > > Yes - quality is a major factor here. If we can't have the same > quality, people won't care, and the code won't be used. That's been > something we've been aware of since day 1. > > > > > In a project of this size some of the the test suites take several > > days to > > run. Some take many many hours of man power. For excessive > > thoroughness > > there also manual JCK and regression test suites. Which, trust me, > > will not > > be performed by someone who isn't being paid for it. Things like > > this don't > > fit well with the community model. > > I'm not so sure. I can easily see that we can find people that would > want to be paid to do it, and people that might pay them to do it. > There's nothing wrong with commercial involvement in projects at > apache, as long as it's a standard Apache-style, transparent > meritocracy. Throughout the ASF, you'll find individuals > participating in projects that are paid by someone to do so. > > > > > Another worry I have is that the effort here might be better > > redirect to > > some other project. We already have Java. Even if harmony does make > > it to a > > useable release people will still prefer to use the Sun VM. It will > > be the > > platform people build on and it will be the one they trust. > > > > I'll be very interested in how this turns out. > > As will we all. Please consider helping us out :) > > geir > > -- > Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- www.FaeLLe.com <http://www.FaeLLe.com>
