The GHC team (coincidentally) is cooking up a very short survey that is intended to help guide our strategic priorities.
There is only one substantial question: Imagine that you had one developer working on GHC for six months full-time, that you were paying for yourself. What would you ask that person to do? Keep in mind that the project should be within GHC itself and tractable in a six-month time-frame. It has a rather different purpose to Taylor's proposed survey and FP Complete's, because it is not comprehensive, but instead focuses on a single question about a single artefact. Returning to Taylor's question list, yes, it would be interesting to know whether the increased release tempo is perceived as helpful or unhelpful. (It's helpful for the development /process/ because it makes reduces the pressure to squeeze "just one more thing" into a release: the next bus will be along in only 6 months.) Incidentally, I for one think that it's a Good Thing that you included FP Complete's survey in the HWN, Taylor. First, I think it's a substantial and interesting piece of work -- and /any/ survey is vulnerable to response bias. Second, I don’t think anyone should expect you as HWN editor to play a role as community censor. Third, deliberately excluding it would in itself be a divisive act in a community that needs less division and more love. You do a fantastic job with HWN. Please keep doing it! Thanks Simon | -----Original Message----- | From: Haskell-community <haskell-community-boun...@haskell.org> On | Behalf Of Gershom B | Sent: 15 October 2018 01:56 | To: tay...@fausak.me; Mathieu Boespflug <mb...@tweag.net>; Ben Gamari | <bgam...@gmail.com> | Cc: haskell-community@haskell.org | Subject: Re: [Haskell-community] 2018 state of Haskell survey | | (cc mathieu boespflug, ben gamari) | | One more thought: | | mathieu, ben -- do you think you would be interested in any questions | on the frequency of ghc releases -- if people appreciate more | frequent, smaller releases, or not, etc? | | I wonder if there are any other questions as well about core libraries | vs. performance vs. "big features" (like type system things) vs. small | ergonomic features etc. that the core ghc team might be interested in | sounding out people on, bearing in mind the necessary limitations of | survey derived data. | | --g | On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 8:36 PM Gershom B <gersh...@gmail.com> wrote: | > | > Hi Taylor. | > | > We're discussing this in the committee. I agree that to the extent | > they can accurately reflect something, language surveys are useful, | > and appreciate that you want to run a useful survey, and certainly | > want to encourage and help you in making it as broad and useful as | > possible. That said, I don't know if slapping a "haskell.org" label on | > the survey will help manage the biggest drivers of selection bias -- | > which is not only about who chooses to respond, but about who is | > reached through what mechanisms. (I don't know the relative importance | > of response-bias vs. outreach-bias in general, and would be curious if | > somebody has some good research on that to point to). I honestly don't | > know if we have enough channels _in general_ to do a good survey, no | > matter who runs it or how at all! Regardless of the decision we come | > to, here are a few of my personal thoughts on the questions you have | > thus far, and what could be added: | > | > 1) A question "how did you hear about this survey" -- this could at | > least help to disentangle outreach-bias, or notice it, depending on if | > it induces any correlations. | > | > 2) A question on how long after a new GHC release users upgrade -- | > both personally, and at work. | > | > 3) Distinguishing between personal and work build-systems in the | > relevant question. | > | > 4) I think the sorts of questions that make sense to ask in this early | > part can resemble those in the first part of the Go survey: | > | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.go | lang.org%2Fsurvey2017- | results&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bbf2 | 008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6367516175958 | 02229&sdata=2wB5Ph5%2Be6wZm0CWP7Yzx%2Fxe4dOlKHqNPKZReiJmE50%3D&r | eserved=0 (I especially like the | > questions about the area of development and server vs cli apps vs | > libraries). I also like their questions about what environments teams | > deploy programs to. It would also be worth asking if the apps | > developed are customer-facing or internal. | > | > 5) I think an interesting question would be what preferred js | > solution, if any, teams adopt -- i.e. ghcjs, typescript, purescript, | > raw js, etc. | > | > 6) for the "why did you stop" question, there are a good range of | > potential multi-choice answers that can be drawn from with the rust | > user survey: | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.ru | st-lang.org%2F2017%2F09%2F05%2FRust-2017-Survey- | Results.html&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e42 | 0bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63675161 | 7595802229&sdata=MpnYeOui%2FfTPfpYRLlzzpStJHqYWJ4ENZd77qdrQ1BY%3D&am | p;reserved=0 | > | > Cheers, | > Gershom | > | > On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 3:32 PM Taylor Fausak <tay...@fausak.me> | wrote: | > > | > > I'm not entirely sure what official support would look like. A few | things come to mind: | > > | > > 1. Simply putting "official" somewhere in the title, such as: | Official 2018 state of Haskell survey. | > > | > > 2. Putting something about Haskell.org in the description of the | survey, such as: Sponsored by Haskell.org. | > > | > > 3. Announcing the survey through channels that I may not be aware | of. Or helping me announce the survey through various channels (mailing | lists, Reddit, and so on) by mentioning Haskell.org. | > > | > > I'm sure there are more ways that I'm not thinking of. | > > | > > Perhaps it would be better to state my goal and see what, if | anything, can be to achieve that goal? My goal is for this survey to be | *the* authoritative Haskell survey and for the community to broadly | accept it results. In particular I would like to avoid reactions like | these to the recent FP Complete survey: | > > | > > > I browse r/haskell all the time and follow FPco on Twitter, and I | wasn't aware of this survey. [1] | > > | > > > It should not be surprising to think that fp complete has much | better outreach to Stackage users than to non Stackage users. [2] | > > | > > > Any survey hosted by FPComplete is biased towards users of stack, | for reasons that should be self evident. [3] | > > | > > Similar sentiments have been expressed about last year's Haskell | Weekly survey: | > > | > > > Haskell Weekly's reputation is tainted as it appears to be seen as | partisan (and I tend to agree). [4] | > > | > > > one of those surveys is from FP Complete and one of them is from | someone who I would consider very partisan in these kind of discussions. | [5] | > > | > > > For the love of god stop posting those surveys. They're not | convincing and obviously flawed. [6] | > > | > > I don't expect to be able to make everyone happy, but I think that | presenting this year's survey as sponsored by both Haskell Weekly and | Haskell.org would go a long way toward making it acceptable to a broad | range of the Haskell community. | > > | > > I hope that helps! | > > | > > [1]: | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnp.redd | it.com%2Fr%2Fhaskell%2Fcomments%2F9mm05d%2F2018_haskell_survey_results%2 | Fe7gplya%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420 | bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617 | 595802229&sdata=X518Wt%2BsB5yepxQO7iKxYzbcOBqNTwH4QvesKNVccBg%3D& | ;reserved=0 | > > [2]: | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnp.redd | it.com%2Fr%2Fhaskell%2Fcomments%2F8tc8pr%2Ffp_complete_launches_new_bloc | kchain_auditing%2Fe188ftv%2F%3Fcontext%3D3&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40 | microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2 | d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617595802229&sdata=4oPTVet8hrgE2lTzjt%2B | 02f13o%2Fq%2BOrnGoITlsBsdKgw%3D&reserved=0 | > > [3]: | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnp.redd | it.com%2Fr%2Fhaskell%2Fcomments%2F9mm05d%2F2018_haskell_survey_results%2 | Fe7gpfwe%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420 | bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617 | 595802229&sdata=9L8ztYN3kOArpdAhOiydFI6gfuz8Evu5%2FmtHZ5j3vyY%3D& | ;reserved=0 | > > [4]: | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnp.redd | it.com%2Fr%2Fhaskell%2Fcomments%2F9mm05d%2F2018_haskell_survey_results%2 | Fe7ka8xn%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420 | bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617 | 595802229&sdata=tpyLQ%2BA3Lj4GLfxjMUgglfRyl46jH6go1ZE3OhVLwLo%3D& | ;reserved=0 | > > [5]: | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnp.redd | it.com%2Fr%2Fhaskell%2Fcomments%2F8tc8pr%2Ffp_complete_launches_new_bloc | kchain_auditing%2Fe187pzq%2F%3Fcontext%3D1&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40 | microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2 | d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617595812242&sdata=ZbjRYFCXl4rraHE%2Bno7 | kefm5N3%2FvtNpaI%2FXTz3N6i7w%3D&reserved=0 | > > [6]: | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnp.redd | it.com%2Fr%2Fhaskell%2Fcomments%2F8uw9hw%2Fpsa_cabal_breaks_with_yaml083 | 1_on_ghc_710_and%2Fe1lfzgr%2F%3Fcontext%3D1&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%4 | 0microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab | 2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617595812242&sdata=oyy8raidob%2Bjf8Evw0 | Kb6aCul0knqYlOlxN8zLjzl3I%3D&reserved=0 | > > | > > | > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2018, at 2:21 PM, Neil Mitchell wrote: | > > | > > Hi Taylor, | > > | > > What does official support look like? I don't think there's anything | above and beyond what you're already doing. | > > | > > Thanks, Neil | > > | > > On Sun, 14 Oct 2018 at 3:49 pm, Taylor Fausak <tay...@fausak.me> | wrote: | > > | > > (I have CCed <commit...@haskell.org> because the haskell-community | mailing list seems relatively quiet and I want to make sure this is | seen.) | > > | > > Hello! My name is Taylor Fausak. I run the Haskell Weekly | newsletter. Last year I published a survey [1] for the Haskell | community. I collected and reported [2] on about 1,335 responses. I plan | on publishing another survey this year on the same date, November 1st. I | am developing it in the open again [3] and would love to hear from any | interested parties. Please let me know if you have any ideas about the | survey! | > > | > > This year I am interested in making the survey official by seeking | support from Haskell.org. Is such a thing possible and desirable? | > > | > > Thanks for your consideration! I hope to hear from you soon. | > > | > > [1]: | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhaskell | weekly.news%2Fsurveys%2F2017.html&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft | .com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db | 47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617595812242&sdata=0eGdCpPFIyxgNp5YNXvP6TZQMAvTJ% | 2BIck4UvSV7wWSU%3D&reserved=0 | > > [2]: | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaylor. | fausak.me%2F2017%2F11%2F15%2F2017-state-of-haskell-survey- | results%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420b | bf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6367516175 | 95812242&sdata=QZjow3PKFG7BitCQCdTe7xW%2BXl4YA4ICVmA%2B87GXOCs%3D&am | p;reserved=0 | > > [3]: | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub. | com%2Fhaskellweekly%2Fhaskellweekly.github.io%2Fissues%2F206&data=02 | %7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f | 988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617595812242&sdata=v2b | W4fjDtWrJnKACnQaoLRoaYw0kADGucwasn2X0wtI%3D&reserved=0 | > > _______________________________________________ | > > Haskell-community mailing list | > > Haskell-community@haskell.org | > > | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.has | kell.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fhaskell- | community&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bb | f2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63675161759 | 5812242&sdata=2SB8gyaEQI2zxvUE%2FEdw%2B%2B2OLcJW10hpH8A1McoP0MY%3D&a | mp;reserved=0 | > > | > > | > > _______________________________________________ | > > Haskell-community mailing list | > > Haskell-community@haskell.org | > > | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.has | kell.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fhaskell- | community&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bb | f2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63675161759 | 5812242&sdata=2SB8gyaEQI2zxvUE%2FEdw%2B%2B2OLcJW10hpH8A1McoP0MY%3D&a | mp;reserved=0 | _______________________________________________ | Haskell-community mailing list | Haskell-community@haskell.org | https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.has | kell.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fhaskell- | community&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bb | f2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63675161759 | 5812242&sdata=2SB8gyaEQI2zxvUE%2FEdw%2B%2B2OLcJW10hpH8A1McoP0MY%3D&a | mp;reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community