I would certainly join such a list. My only concer would be that moderating such a list could be tricky. How do you judge when a discussion has become "too technical"? And what do you do about it? Force the members to take it to -cafe? Anyway, I like the idea of having a more beginner-friendly list, and have suggested something similar for the IRC channel multiple times.
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:39 AM, Benjamin L. Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new > Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. > > In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message > to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the > Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally > suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait > for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in > this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in > Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed > feelings regarding this idea. > > In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to > questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it > alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is > started, would be most welcome. > > Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, > this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. > > -- Benjamin L. Russell > > --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related >> Haskell-related mailing list >> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" <haskell@haskell.org> >> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM >> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on >> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and >> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called >> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing >> List." This new mailing list would be guided by the >> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but >> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea >> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org >> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this >> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here >> to ask for feedback. >> >> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would >> be as follows: >> >> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the >> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in >> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to >> in research. >> >> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students >> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for >> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal >> arts education, as opposed to an >> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. >> >> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: >> >> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for >> announcements and for non-beginner discussions >> >> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for >> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious >> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of >> the language Haskell. >> >> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for >> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly >> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have >> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not >> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have >> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not >> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting >> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and >> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the >> mailing list. >> >> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a >> private e-mail message from another poster asking the >> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing >> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow >> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points >> randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this >> question required the knowledge that screen resolution >> could be considered independently from the precision of the >> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to >> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar >> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and >> received the above-mentioned response.) >> >> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue >> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, >> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from >> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics >> background. The primary audience of this new mailing list >> would be educators and students in a liberal arts >> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for >> studying functional programming. Currently, the language >> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is >> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has >> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming >> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell >> may either not have a computer science background, or may >> not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts >> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, >> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find >> valuable information to aid their research, but may be >> welcome >> in a more education-focused context. >> >> It would seem that creating a new mailing list, >> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching >> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding >> questions from students in that context, would help >> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread >> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in >> industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could >> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and >> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background >> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators >> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected >> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science >> background. >> >> -- Benjamin L. Russell >> >> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > From: Simon Marlow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing >> list >> > To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > Cc: "John Peterson" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM >> > Hi Benjamin, >> > >> > Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list >> has >> > a narrow >> > focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this >> case >> > you're >> > proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it >> > needs discussion >> > amongst the community before we create the list, so >> that we >> > can keep a >> > consistent strategy. >> > >> > That's not to say that I disagree with your >> proposal. >> > But it doesn't >> > seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and >> why >> > haskell-cafe >> > shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that >> isn't >> > clear is whether the >> > list you're proposing is for people interested in >> > *teaching* Haskell (in >> > which case I'd say it's a great idea), or >> people >> > *learning* Haskell (in >> > which case I'd consider carefully whether >> haskell-cafe >> > shoudn't be >> > serving that need). That's something you need to >> > clarify when proposing >> > this list to the community. >> > >> > So I suggest you send this proposal out to >> > haskell@haskell.org in the >> > first instance, and see what response you get. >> Discussion >> > should move >> > to haskell-cafe quickly. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Simon >> > >> > Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >> > > Greetings, >> > > >> > > John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail >> > message requesting you to perform set-up of a new >> > Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to >> > moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the >> > administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. >> > > >> > > My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >> interested in >> > starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan >> to call >> > Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research >> > beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >> > philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to >> > non-computer science major students. >> > > >> > > This topic is not covered by any of the other >> mailing >> > lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and >> Haskell-Cafe >> > for the past six months or so, but the former is >> devoted to >> > announcements, and the latter de facto to research >> matters. >> > Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly >> academic >> > and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an >> > unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science >> majors >> > interested in learning Haskell. >> > > >> > > Since John Peterson recommended that I request >> you to >> > set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you >> please >> > set it whenever you have free time, as follows: >> > > >> > > Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu >> > > E-mail Address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > > Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing >> List: >> > Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in >> > Education >> > > >> > > Could you please advise me on what I need to do >> to >> > start this mailing list? Should I host it on >> haskell.org, >> > or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org >> mailing >> > list service? Also, how should I have it listed in >> the >> > "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >> > (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the >> > benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >> > > >> > > Thank you very much for your time and >> cooperation. >> > > >> > > Sincerely yours, >> > > >> > > Benjamin L. Russell >> > > >> > > --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > > >> > >> From: John Peterson >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > >> Subject: RE: on starting a new >> Haskell-related >> > mailing list >> > >> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > >> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM >> > >> Hi Benjamin, >> > >> >> > >> There's no problem starting a new mailing >> > list. Simon >> > >> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if >> you >> > drop him >> > >> and email he'll do the setup for >> Haskell.org. >> > Once the >> > >> list is going, you can go into the wiki and >> add it >> > to the >> > >> appropriate pages. >> > >> >> > >> We've had a bunch of these special >> interest >> > lists and >> > >> most of them go dead after a few months but >> you >> > never know >> > >> ... >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> John >> > > >> > > --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > > >> > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > >> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related >> mailing >> > list >> > >> To: "John Peterson" >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > >> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM >> > >> Greetings, >> > >> >> > >> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >> > interested in >> > >> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which >> I >> > plan to >> > >> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to >> > non-research >> > >> beginner-level educational matters, guided by >> the >> > >> philosophy that Haskell should be more >> accessible >> > to >> > >> non-computer science major students. (This >> > message is >> > >> being addressed to you because I had already >> sent >> > the >> > >> portion below twice to other administrators >> at >> > Haskell.org, >> > >> first to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and then >> to >> > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED], but had not >> received a >> > response >> > >> on either occasion.) >> > >> >> > >> This topic is not covered by any of the other >> > mailing >> > >> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell >> and >> > Haskell-Cafe >> > >> for the past six months or so, but the former >> is >> > devoted to >> > >> announcements, and the latter de facto to >> research >> > matters. >> > >> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is >> overly >> > academic >> > >> and research-oriented, and I feel that this >> > creates an >> > >> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer >> > science majors >> > >> interested in learning Haskell. >> > >> >> > >> Could you please advise me on what I need to >> do to >> > start >> > >> this mailing list? Should I host it on >> > haskell.org, or >> > >> just start it by myself using a >> non-Haskell.org >> > mailing >> > >> list service? Also, how should I have it >> listed >> > in the >> > >> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >> > >> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) >> page for >> > the >> > >> benefit of other members of the Haskell >> community? >> > >> >> > >> Thank you very much for your time and >> cooperation. >> > >> >> > >> Sincerely yours, >> > >> >> > >> Benjamin L. Russell >> _______________________________________________ >> Haskell mailing list >> Haskell@haskell.org >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > _______________________________________________ Haskell mailing list Haskell@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
