[I suppose software standards bodies hate is on topic]
Philip Newton wrote: > On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 01:17, Michael G Schwern <schw...@pobox.com> wrote: >> [1] Maybe they did in one of the newer versions of SQL, but I can't read them >> because they cost a good wad of cash. God forbid the standard be available. > > Oh please. They _are_ available, just not for free, because the people > working on them also have to eat. > > Who would you expect pays for them? Governments, through your taxes? > Big companies, passing on the costs to you through their products' > prices? Hmm, I ran my sarcas-o-meter over your reply, but it reports inconclusive results. Yes, as a member of ISO your government pays membership dues. That's about 60% of their operating budget. The other 40% is through sales of publications and services. http://www.iso.org/iso/about/iso_in_figures.htm But this is just in money for ISO operating costs. The rest is subsidized by the industry... The main costs are borne by the member bodies that manage the specific standards development projects and the business organizations that provide experts to participate in the technical work. These organizations are, in effect, subsidizing the technical work by paying the travel costs of the experts and allowing them time to work on their ISO assignments. http://www.iso.org/iso/about/discover-iso_how-the-iso-system-is-financed.htm Which is effectively how the IETF operates, and they can provide free standards which are, strangely enough, readable. Maybe it has something to do with not being a massive, crushing bureaucracy (just a small one). There is an interesting parallel argument that some US State governments like to make. It is a subject near and dear to my heart and home. Some folks realized that some US States copyright their laws! [1] They found this out when they went to put them online in a browser and search friendly format. The states said "those are our copyrighted works! You can't republish them without our permission! You might screw it up! (And, oh, we make money off selling printed and digital copies)." The counter argument was a no-brainer. How can you expect good citizens to follow the laws if they don't have access to the laws? And is it fair that the rich can have better access to the laws than the poor? It is a far greater benefit for society to have the best possible access to their laws then for a state office to make a few extra bucks. [2] The same can be said of standards. It is a far greater benefit to the industry for everyone to have access to the actual standards, and to write their software to use those standards, then for a standards body to make a few extra bucks. Otherwise those who can't afford to purchase the standards play a sort of game of "standards telephone" where they have to go on what 4th-hand, watered-down, hearsay they can find for free. And then the standard isn't so standard. Being non-free limits distribution, you have to use that crappy ISO store. It limits access and searchability. There's no Google Standards Search. Worse, it limits discussion of implementation because all parties involved might not have copies. Worse, the burden of price [3] is relative. $100 or $200 or $1000 to buy a standard is a sneeze for a corporation of any size. But a small shop or individual that's a good chunk of change. This gives an unfair advantage to the larger organizations... who incidentally are the ones who can afford to have a stake in writing the standards. [1] Oregon and California have been challenged to date. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/15/california-demands-site-stop-posting-laws-online/ [2] Also that you can't copyright public works. Technically, they copyright the "the arrangement and subject-matter compilation" which is to say the formatting, layout, indexes, table of contents, ordering and page numbers which is unlikely to meet the originality criteria for copyright. [3] The SQL:2008 standard can be shipped to you over snail mail for CD for the low low price of $350, but for some reason if you want to just download it as a PDF you have to pay a la carte for each piece which is a mere $2650. -- There will be snacks.
