Your critics say you have been an NGO leader for so long that it is taking you a while to act presidential. One thing they point out is you have not been able to muster control of the military.
The problem is that we have to take a very gradual approach to things. They like to see good results. The criticism is good, but if it is motivated by a need to have a quick result, then it will result in a kind of disappointment for those people. As for me, I know I have to work in a gradual way. I have nothing to regret or be sorry for when I continue along my own path, little by little. It looked at first as if we were silent about the military. Then later I waited for the results of the KPP Ham [National Commission on Human Rights] investigation in East Timor and the violation of human rights there allegedly done by the army. Now I am in a position to say whoever will be indicated by the KPP Ham will have to be in an interim nonactive status. And when he or she is proven by the court to be guilty, then they should resign and become a civilian. So you can see it is a gradual approach.
The report is going to come out at the end of this month. Is that when you will decide?
The decision is not mine. They will have to be nonactive, after they will have to resign, whoever the fellow. This is the situation. There is also another point I learned recently - the report of the United Nations inquiry commission condemning the Indonesian military, saying in essence that the armed-forces generals were implicated. I don't know whether this report will influence the domestic commission or not, but if so and the two organizations reach the same conclusion, that means my position is the right one. We have to take action - not me myself or the government, but the commission of inquiry and the KPP Ham.
What will they do? Will they recommend that the implicated generals resign or take up inactive posts?
Some of them will resign, some of them be taken to the court. It depends.
Do you expect them to resign voluntarily?
I don't know what will happen to them because not all of them were the commander of the armed forces. So for the commander of the armed forces, Gen. Wiranto, then it's different. Because he was the commander I will call him and I will ask him to resign. If he refuses, then he will go to the court.
This is assuming he is implicated in the report?
If he's implicated, of course. That's most fundamental.
Will you ask him to resign?
Why not, why not? I'll call him, I'll call him.
Does that mean if he is simply implicated by the investigation, or if he is found guilty?
I will call him and say I heard about this report and the conclusions that you are implicated. Because of this, it is better to save the institution, the Indonesian Armed Forces, so then you have to resign.
We have heard you have already signed a decree retiring Wiranto, [Mines and Energy Minister] Bambang Yudhoyono and [Communications Minister] Lt.-Gen. Agum Gumalar from the army.
I don't know. I asked Adm. Widodo [the current Indonesian armed-forces commander]. I told him to write the decree on that and then I will sign. But I can't see so I don't know yet. If it was presented to me then I would sign it. It is up to him, not me. But I have ordered him to do so.
But Mr. President, about a month ago you ordered the removal of the military spokesman, Gen. Sudradjat. It took a month for that to happen.
Yeh, yeh
How can you explain that?
I criticized him, I criticized the commander [Widodo]. I never asked why [there was a delay]. But anyway, I said to him that this should not be repeated again.
You mean, the length of time it took to remove him?
It's difficult for him to find a replacement.
It is?
He said that to me. If it's difficult to find a replacement, it can be technical. There's nobody. But it can be political. He had to convince the others to do that. But I believe him.
Some months ago you said that military reform was more important than national reconciliation. Do you still believe that?
Oh, yes.
Is military reform the top priority of your administration?
Yes, the priority is there. But the timing has been extended for several months.
What comes after that? What does it allow you to do?
Now it is already being done. We have a very good commander of the armed forces and we also have a very good army chief of staff and a new police chief. And we have Air Vice-Marshal Ian Santoso as the chief of military intelligence. What I said to him, you should be concentrating on military intelligence, not the other intelligence. This is important. This is reform. I asked the generals who now head Bakin [the civilian intelligence agency], you should not be concerned about military intelligence. You should be concerned about general intelligence. So you can see it's reform already. We have to continue that. It's not easy, but I think it's good. The appointment of Juwono Sudarsono [a civilian] as minister of defence, is also part of the reform of the military. Also the appointment of several other people. Although it doesn't look that much, it is reform.
What is your opinion of comments made by [military reformist leader] Maj.-Gen. Agus Wirahadikusumah [who has apologized for the military's past abuses and has called for the partial dismantling of the military's pervasive territorial structure].
Very good, very good comments.
Can you explain why there is only one general in the armed forces with the courage to stand up and say things even his fellow generals don't seem to appreciate?
The other generals feel the same, but Agus is so fed up. So I invited him to meet me in Makassar [formerly Ujung Pandang] with [armed-forces commander] Widodo, Interior Minister Soejadi, an army man, and also the governor of South Sulawesi, a two-star army general and Ian Santosa. Afterwards I said to the press that there were so many arguments opposed to Gen. Agus, but that there was another type of complaint from Ian. He said the remarks of Agus were soft. You can see there are many different views in the armed forces. In that framework, I understand why Gen. Agus feels that way.
Do you favour the dismantling of the military's territorial structure?
I can't say now how [it can be done] because I will follow the decision of further deliberations between them [the military]. I think the way to do that is ask Widodo to appoint a commission, but I will have to wait for the right moment.
The continuing violence in Ambon and Lombok and the simmering problem in Aceh gives the impression you are not in control. What are you going to do about that?
The impression is from the press, it is not reality. In Aceh we have come to the stage where the two most important elements, the pesentran ulemas [Muslim religious teachers] as well as the students, have begun to come with us. This is important. It means we can control the situation. Besides that, the people are fed up with the Free Aceh people movement, which robbed them of everything. I hope that within the next two or three months everything will calm down. Don't forget also that on January 25 I shall go to Aceh, to [the island port of] Sabang, and also to begin the delivery of what we promised to them - not like before. I have received humanitarian assistance from Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah [of Brunei] and soon assistance will come from the emir of Kuwait and also from Saudi Arabia.
What do you think are the prerequisites for economic recovery in Indonesia? What needs to happen? Do you need to have stability first and for how long? Do you need to have military reform before internal and external investors have confidence?
We now try to convince foreign governments as well as foreign investors that things are calm in Indonesia. Those programmes will be finished soon and we will be in firm control of the situation.
Don't you also need a legal structure, a rule of law, the need to know that contracts will be enforced? Have you begun thinking about how you do that?
I've done that. Texmaco [a giant industrial group that allegedly got a special loan from a state bank at the behest of then-President Suharto] as an institution should be defended because it is a flag-carrier for our exports. But of course the people can be tried, why not - even [Texmaco President-Director Marimutu] Sinivasen. Then in that way you will establish a rule of law. Of course there was a complaint that we asked Bank Putra [Multikarsa, Texmaco's bank] to be given clearing facilities. So there was a complaint from the IMF from this. I said it's just to prevent Texmaco from going under. I don't have any particular or personal stake at Bank Putra or anywhere else.
How do you explain the rise of political Islam ?
Ah, it's not rising. You know, those militants lost everything, so the only way is to raise their voice. When they said they could get one million people [at a recent Jakarta rally], they were only able to get 60,000. Of course [National Legislative Assembly Chairman] Amien Rais can talk that way but even Goh Chok Tong [Singapore's prime minister, who met Wahid in Jakarta on January 13] doesn't believe it.
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