Oooh - I smell fresh flame bait LOL ;)
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Whisper Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:06 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Now that I think about, it is actually a good thing that Valve updates break all these plugins. Its amazing how much coding gets done when this happens. :) Nothing beats poking a stick into the mod communities ant nest. :D It does seem to be a way to breathe fresh air into what appear to be stagnant projects. On 8/28/06, [DumB]TeXas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "Amen" to your example, I do disagree on one thing though; > > "just let the third parties know that the change will break their code" > > - This would take a lot of resources because valve won't automatically > know that if they change this particular thing, this and that plugin > will break. > It would require a lot of debugging with 3rd party plugins to figure > out and this is *not* valves responsibility - however if they just > provided the information and tools necessary for the 3rd party > developers to do this job them self I think we'd all be happy. > > All that would take is a pre-release of the new updates and possibly a > change-log which I am sure they use in their development anyway. With > a pre-release, fixes/new versions could be ready the second valve > officially release their update(s) - server admins would only have to > go to the various plugin websites and grab the new version after doing > the update and be up and running again quickly. > > I'm sure this would cut back on time needed for support and > discussions like this as well - in the end possibly saving you both > hassle and money + having happy customers which doesn't hurt. ;) > > I think there have been similar discussions like this going on for > ages. I noticed the same thing has just started at the linux mail-list > as well with basically the same concept of pre-releasing updates a few > days in advance being suggested. Maybe its time for valve to take this > seriously and look into the possibility if this have not been done > already? > > I'd be very grateful if Alfred or someone could give us some comments > on this. NOTE: not on the concept of "checking that it works" etc - > but on the possibility of having a pre-release system. > > - TeX. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward Luna > Sent: 27. august 2006 17:17 > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: RE: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released > Importance: Low > > Yes, it is true that Valve is under no obligation to notify third > party plug-in providers about anything they are doing... it may make > reasonable sense to reasonable people, but nothing is forcing Valve to > do so. On the other hand... no company can survive if their customers > are repeatedly subject to loss of whatever service that company > provides... be it disruption in product performance or in the supply > chain. Valve appears to have the supply chain issued locked-up in > that you automatically get the updates or (in the case of servers) are > forced to download the updates or face loosing your listing however; > the service side of the equation is perceived to be a failure by a > fair percentage of server admins. Perhaps this is unfair to Valve, > but it is the general perception and perception trumps reality every time. > It is an established fact that without servers there is no game and > most servers are running mods and plug-ins and these products wouldn't > exist unless there was a valid measurable need for them. For Valve to > imply that the problems caused by their updates (which are not > optional, are strictly the responsibility of the third party > providers, is for Valve to turn it's back on it's own installed > customer base. This is never a good thing. > I sometimes wonder why we play this game... what's the point really? > But then again, why do people bowl or play golf or tennis... these are > all games that people play for enjoyment... just like we do. The only > difference is that we use a computer and they use a ball, or a club, > or a racket. So what if every time AMF made an improvement to their > bowling machines all bowling centers no longer worked... of if they > improved their tennis rackets all the tennis courts in the world > stopped working or made a change to their golf clubs all the golf > courses closed for a week? This would never be tolerated and I doubt > that AMF would try to blame these problems on the way people were > attempting to use their products... even if it were true. > It is absolutely true that the plug-in makers are responsible for > altering their code to accommodate changes Valve makes... that fact is > not in question. Several on this list have made reasonable > suggestions as to how Valve could easily avoid all the problems for > their customers by either making the third party providers aware of > code changes or having a few servers of their own running the third > party stuff and notify the handful of third party providers if an > update will break their code. This appears to be a reasonable > approach. Neither myself or anyone's else is suggesting that Valve > alter their code to fit third parties... just let the third parties > know that the change will break their code and give them a few days > before the update release to fix the problem. I'm certain that the > server admins would be extremely grateful for that simply act of sanity. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:12 AM > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released > > > Some of us do not have a choice of using these plugins. People have > asked nicely over and over again that Valve merely communicate with > the four or five main plugin developers before a patch is released so > those of us that have to run these plugins do not have our servers > down waiting for a fix. > > It is bad enough that you ram these updates (that half the time make > it > worse) down people's throats. But you offer no prep, no indication of > what you are changing or breaking. Why don't you see if the popular > plugins break updates before release? How long would it take to test > the four or five common plugins that everyone uses and tell admins > what works and what doesn't so that everyone does not have to scramble > to get their servers to stop crashing? > > If it were not for MODs and plugins I would have stopped playing HL > years ago. The people that run servers are your lifeblood, we are not > asking a lot just a little consideration. As someone else said, if the > SDK offered everything that the plugin developers needed I am sure > they would use it. > but they don't. > > -YMAC > > On 8/25/06 1:55 AM, "Alfred Reynolds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > The problem is that these plugins are hacking into hard coded > > offsets > in > > the game server, one tiny code change from us and the plugin blows up. > > The solution is for them to use the plugin API we provide which > doesn't > > have this problem. If you don't like fragile plugins that crash your > > game server then please don't use them. > > > > - Alfred > > > > Adam Sando wrote: > >> From a good faith perspective, yes they should engage 3rd party > >> developers to ensure adequate testing has taken place. From a > >> project deadline point of view, taking into account the fact most > CEO's/Boards > >> of directors are quite tight with timelines, they might not want to > >> have their dev teams engage 3rd party developers to ensure their > >> updates work, as this could be seen as a monumental waste of time. > >> > >> Ethically, it would be nice if valve had a strong relationship with > >> the 3rd party development base out there, however sometimes > >> business takes precedence over pleasure. It's just hard to define > >> how much a part of Valves business, comes from Game Server > >> Administrators, and how much would come from other market avenues. > >> > >> I might not be right, but this is what I would think happens at > >> Valve when they are planning their updates? > >> > >> Regards, > >> Adam > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [DumB]TeXas > >> Sent: Friday, 25 August 2006 1:57 PM > >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > >> Subject: RE: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released > >> > >> I don't think you have read what I said though Adam, I haven't said > >> they have any legal obligations and I haven't said that _they_ > >> should make sure things works with their updates. > >> > >> What I suggested was that they do more of an effort to help the > >> developers to debug their own plugins before updates go official - > >> by for an example providing a test environment such as an update > >> they > can > >> apply a few days before the release. This way the _developers of > >> the 3rd party plugins_ can do their job and get it working with the > >> new updates. > >> This should only mean extending the time before a new update by a > >> few days which doesn't matter when it comes to cosmetic updates > >> such as this one. > >> > >> If anything, this goes under a moral obligation, to help all the > >> people out there putting time, money and effort into running their > >> games on servers and developing 3rd party plugins that makes their > >> games playable - such as proper admin tools. > >> > >> TeX. :) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Sando > >> Sent: 25. august 2006 05:38 > >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > >> Subject: RE: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released > >> > >> Just remember Tex, Valve have no legal or moral obligations to > provide > >> support or compatibility with any 3rd party plugins not written by > >> Valve. Valve try to make their updates as flawless as possible, > >> however they are not able to make sure that every infinite > >> combination of plugins work together. Not unless you want 1 update > >> per year perhaps? > >> ;) > >> > >> Regards, > >> Adam. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [DumB]TeXas > >> Sent: Friday, 25 August 2006 1:03 PM > >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > >> Subject: RE: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released > >> > >> Some of the metamod plugis appears not to be working - and my > >> little rant there still stands regardless. Not that anyone cares > >> about it. I just don't think I am the only one that is a 'tad' sick > >> of updates breaking everything from a to z - and tbh there could be > >> more effort to prevent it than there is today. Oh well... > >> > >> Server with v1.2 beta and the new gametypes.txt, on a windows 2003 > >> server machine seems to work like a charm though. Cheers! :) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt > >> Albiniak > >> Sent: 25. august 2006 04:50 > >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released > >> > >> link- > >> please let me know if your server stays up without a crash for more > >> than 2 rounds or 60 minutes. ours isn't, even without mani. :( > >> > >> On 8/24/06, Link Pankratz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> Just as an addendum to my last post, the slay command *does* work > >>> with > >> > >>> the new gametypes.txt but I have *not* tested everything else. I > have > >>> also not experienced the server dying with the player. > >>> > >>> Link > >>> > >>> [DumB]TeXas wrote: > >>>> Well 1.1.0zi does 'work', as in; it will start and everything > >>>> will appear to be working - admin menu works and most admin > >>>> commands (not slay) works > >> from > >>>> what I could see. However, the second a player dies the server > >>>> dies with > >> it. > >>>> So in other words, its not exactly of much use... :P > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >>> archives, please visit: > >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Matt Albiniak > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > >> please visit: > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/428 - Release Date: > 8/25/2006 > > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > -- _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
