Thank you for taking the time to enunciate what I'm sure many other server admins - myself, included - think about this subject.
Ryan On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 7:20 PM, Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Not this bullshit again. > > The custom tab has to be scratched, all servers should be displayed by > default. Players should then be allowed to filter tags they like or do not > like. > > If a player learns to use tags, great. If they don't, they see all options. > This is what's important, if you by default HIDE 'custom' servers, the > majority of the players who don't care will never see the so called custom > servers. > > The whole tag system is flawed, let's say I run a 24 server without fast > respawn. No tags are added by valve without any kind of mods manipulating > the tags. > > But I add a grapple hook for all players. > > What server operator in their right mind would voluntarily add a tag that > results in their server effectively being delisted? > > NOBODY. > > And then what is valve going to do about that? Are they going to come tell > server ops "hey you HAVE to list tags". > > Is valve going to hire a bunch of people to look for servers to make sure > they aren't modded? Doubtful. > > In its current implementation server operators have an incentive to avoid > tags, if all servers are shown by default with their respective tags, server > operators would have an incentive to SHOW their tags. It's basically saying > "hey! Look what we got!", but if players don't see this by default, it will > be worthless. > > How hard is it to understand this? > > Valve probably realized their mistake and might be correcting it. At least I > hope so. The custom tab will be an eternal cat and mouse game between server > operators and valve. Valve can very easily solve the problem and make > everyone happy just by having the servers all visible by default. > > Players who want custom, can find it. > Players who want vanilla, can find it. > Players who don't care or don't know what they want, or don't know how to > use the filters, have all options shown to them so they can make their mind > on the fly. > > If you go to a restaurant and the waiter gives you a menu, and without you > knowing, there is "two" different menus, but they give you the "standard" > menu, chances are, very few people will ever ask "hey what's on the other > menu" > > Also, increased_maxplayers is probably one of the stupidest tags ever. It's > like a bag of peanuts with the warning: "Warning: contains peanuts". Like > players can't tell it's a 32 player server without reading the tags. > > - voogru. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SakeFox > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 9:57 PM > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] valve, some feedback? > > Well just because you pay for your servers doesn't give you rights to do > whatever with there programs. Valve has been good about allowing people > to modify there games, but i can see there point in what they are doing. > They want people that are getting into the game to be able to play it as > it was created and not with modified settings. There not limiting anyone > from running there servers how they want. They are just looking at how > new people experience the game. Now the game was designed for 24players > in a server, so if you have a 32 person complaining about balancing > issues in a game, that information is kinda scewed because the game is > not played as intended. > > I really didn't want to create the bullshit from a few weeks ago either, > however i think it was a few months ago, but since no one else has been > calling Valve out on there short comings and completely ignoring issues > with there games I thought I might as well start somewhere. This really > wasn't intended to start the flame back up, but thought it to bring this > bit up of there idle threats first and get it out of the way since its > the most touchy of things. > > tgnwells wrote: >> I think the problem is valve set up the rules without thinking much >> about them, or more obviously, how the community would react to being >> forced to have to adapt to these changes when there's really no reason to. >> >> And a lot of people pay good money for their hosted servers, I don't >> think Valve should be moderating the servers people put up and start >> punishing people for something that doesn't really matter either way, I >> especially hope they don't think they should as well. >> >> And to think this whole custom tags argument bullshit could be done with >> once and for all by adding an "All Servers" tab. >> >> chillicane wrote: >> >>> indeed you are correct, valve set us up the rules (sic) >>> >>> The problem we have in this country is all the major telco run server >>> opertions have instaspawn servers and none of them end up in the custom > tab, >>> wether they are running a plugin version of instaspawn or >>> disableresapwntimers 1. >>> >>> And the custom tab may have only 20 or so servers on it at any one time. >>> >>> hopefully i managed to avoid creating a flame war over this. Certainly > dont >>> want to create that bullshit we had here 2 weeks ago. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Jake E <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> good idea >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 7:24 PM, chillicane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Apart from the fact that it took me a while to realise the custom tab > was >>>>> there when it was first implemented, my main issue with it is that it > is >>>>> STILL not in the out of game, steam server list. >>>>> >>>>> I think the tags should still be there, but instead of shunting the >>>>> >>>>> >>>> servers >>>> >>>> >>>>> off to the custom tab where no-one looks, allow them to be searchable > via >>>>> filters. If something like this was happening instead of the custom tab >>>>> arrangment, we wouldnt be trying so hard to circumvent this in the > first >>>>> place. The fact is, if your on the custom tab, people dont come. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Blood Letter < >>>>> >>>>> >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The last thing Valve wants to do is get in a war with the mod writers >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> over >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> this. >>>>>> Every TF2 update will include a patch to the delisting code, and every >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> mod >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> update will include a patch for that. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm a server admin. I don't know what the tags are. I don't know how >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> to >>>> >>>> >>>>>> use them. I don't care. >>>>>> I run a game server for people to have fun. My server run's Beetles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> Mod >>>> >>>> >>>>>> for administration and reserved slots. >>>>>> I have custom maps, but not in my regular rotation. If the server is >>>>>> switched to one, you'll be able to download it lickity split from my >>>>>> redirect. >>>>>> I see no need for tags in my case. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you're running a 24/7 or party mode or omg supar low gravity or >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> whatever >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> server that can mess with people's stats, achievements, etc., just > list >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> it >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> in the damned server name. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for tags/stats/etc.... >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd be more than happy to see Valve do away with the custom tags >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> entirely >>>> >>>> >>>>>> and just give us more robust filter options, and the option to reset >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> our >>>> >>>> >>>>>> stats. >>>>>> Ideally, you'd be able to reset individual stats and achievements, and >>>>>> track stats over all time, month, week, etc. Sure, that kind of stat >>>>>> tracking is more suited to a mod/plugin, but those would only catch >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> data >>>> >>>> >>>>>> from one server/group of servers, and you wouldn't see them when >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> loading. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> The way Valve handled stats seems to have been shortsighted. When >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> someone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> first gets into TF2, they see their stats at each map load and can see >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> their >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> progress, and it's interesting. It encourages you to try out other >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> classes >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> and do better. After a few weeks/months, you're basically staring at >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>>>> same bars. Stats don't age well. A lot of people complain about >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> custom >>>> >>>> >>>>>> servers avoiding the tags because they can ruin their stats. A lot of >>>>>> people want to reset their stats because of this. I'm willing to be >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> there >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> are also a lot of people who would like to reset their stats just >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> because >>>> >>>> >>>>>> they'd like to get a picture of how they're doing now that they're >>>>>> experienced with the game. Stats would a lot more fun for me if I >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> could >>>> >>>> >>>>>> reset them (keeping my unlocks/achievements!) and play for a week or >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> two >>>> >>>> >>>>>> from a blank slate. >>>>>> >>>>>> If we can't reset our stats, let us reset our stat displays. Think of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> it >>>> >>>> >>>>>> as an odometer versus a trip odometer. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:31:02 -0400 >>>>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >>>>>>> Subject: [hlds] valve, some feedback? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Most likely there will be a patch and make some of this more >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> worthless >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> then it already is, but since its been kinda quite the last few days >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> i >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> thought what the heck. No its not beating a long lost dead >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> horse...well >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> maybe a small poke. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A while ago valve made mention about delisting servers that are >>>>>>> bypassing the custom tags. Now i am not wanting to start a huge thing >>>>>>> again on if there should be tags or what not, but i am more wondering >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> on >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> why valve gave out a kind of idle threat then does nothing with it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> You >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> look on the lists and there are a bunch of servers that are bypassing >>>>>>> it. Is there going to be any actual enforcement here or something >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> else >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> you guys are just giving up on it? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would like to hear some feedback from valve about some bug fixes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> that >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> i had brought up in the list before. most that have been there since >>>>>>> long long ago that also seem to have been ignored. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can we get some information on these things? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> archives, >>>> >>>> >>>>>> please visit: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>>> Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> Messenger. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL > _Refresh_messenger_video_072008 >>>> >>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>>> please visit: >>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> -------- >>>>> Chillidog Systems - Re-inventing the wheel for the sake of all > humanity! >>>>> -------- >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>> please visit: >>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> I don't have a sig -_- >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>> please visit: >>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
