"*huge learning curve*" At least its not C++ (or *eve online* OH SNAP I WENT THERE)
With the barrier of entry higher than other mapping programs, you don't see crap as often. Personally, hammer to me is very easy to use, and sometimes actually fun. On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Tobias Kammersgaard < [email protected]> wrote: > Honestly I think the whole HL2Studio ordeal was one big fake. > > /ScarT > > > 2009/6/7 Brandished <[email protected]> > > > > > Heh, the infamous HL2Studio. That was apparently sold off to "someone", > > there aren't many details on what happened to it. > > > http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/index.php?title=HL2Studio&oldid=18823 > > > > Also, what's with all this talk about _not_ "dumbing down" (ie: > > simplifying) the editor silliness? I could see the argument if > simplifying > > an editor came at the cost of losing features and the level of > > customization, but that wasn't really stated or implied. "133t m...@pp3r" > > syndrome is the main reason I stopped visiting FPSB (along with the loads > of > > malicious java/flash exploits that seem to keep showing up there). A > level > > editor exists to "dumb down" the process of making maps to begin with by > > design. I don't hate math, but I still would not enjoy plotting out all > the > > 3D coordinates for a level's geometry using a pencil, a sheet of paper, > and > > an abacus. > > > > I always considered the point of a level editor to be making levels, not > > weeding out the "unworthy". I think the biggest challenge in making a > map > > should be mainly coming up with a great idea on paper or in your head; > > something that would be enjoyable to play through, something that isn't a > > complete carbon copy of what already exists, and something that will work > > well with a game's design and the game engine's limitations in mind, not > > translating that idea into something playable. I don't think I've ever > > played a game and thought, "Geez, I sure wish this game had less levels, > > there's just way too many, I'll never be able to finish it". Time is > enough > > of a limiting factor when it comes down to level design as it is, > regardless > > of the tool used. Many major game studios nowadays have at least 3 > people > > that work on a single level to begin with, one that shapes and lays out > the > > geometry, another that handles the scripted sequences and entity IO, and > > another that handles the texture work / lighting / art. > > > > Lets leave weeding out the "unworthy maps/mappers" to the players, if you > > completely ignore what they would like to see in a map, you risk them > > ignoring what you make, regardless of how much effort goes into it. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Tobias Kammersgaard <[email protected]> > > To: Discussion of Half-Life Mapping <[email protected]> > > Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2009 5:58:49 PM > > Subject: Re: [hlmappers] Source Engine/Hammer Size maximum size > > > > Is there any chance I could see this editor you're working on? I remember > > there was an entry on the VDC ages ago about another editor. I think it > was > > called HLEditor or something like that. The GUI pretty much just looked > > like > > XSI with some green colors upon it. > > The maximum sizes for a map in Hammer (and in Source?) is -16384, > > 16384 (found in base.fgd) > > > > > > /ScarT > > > > > > 2009/6/6 Alex Guichet <[email protected]> > > > > > O_O > > > > > > No. Not dumbed down at all. You took it completely wrong. I want to > make > > a > > > new set of more powerful tools to make it easier for designers to have > a > > > higher amount (and consequently easier) of control of their map design. > I > > > plan to have the ability to do everything you can currently do in > hammer > > in > > > my editor. But I mean, have you seen the CryEngine sandbox editor or > even > > > UnrealEd? There is a learning curve for all of them, but each of them > > have > > > their own tools that make those editors so great. CryEngine is amazing > > with > > > displacements. UnrealEd is nearly perfect (acoording to some). I find > > that > > > hammer, while indeed powerful, does pale in comparison for designers to > > > those editors. I (and other designers) have found that it is much > easier > > to > > > make better things in those editors much easier. > > > > > > I am in NO WAY going to dumb down this editor whatsoever. If you > actually > > > read my last message, I didn't mention a single thing about dumbing > down > > > the > > > editor... I only mentioned "much more powerful editor with easier to > use > > > tools". All of my tools will still have extremely high levels of > > > configurability, and you can still do everything the old way. I'm not > > > cutting out any features at all. > > > > > > By the way, I'm working on this editor with several other WELL > > ESTABLISHED > > > map makers of the HL community (one who does have a published community > > > map), and they're passing their thoughts off to me that they think > would > > > make an editor better. Everyone has their own complaints for hammer, > and > > > I'm > > > trying to fix it. I'm NOT trying to make a "beginner's" map editor by > any > > > means. > > > > > > Alex Guichet > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Mike Zimmermann <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > (Redirected by <[email protected]>) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you really just want a dumbed down version of Hammer with drag and > > > drop, > > > > easy peezy look like shitty? The high level of control of Hammer is > > what > > > > makes it so appealing and easy to use. Sure it has a huge learning > > curve > > > > but > > > > if someone *really* wants to make a map for a HL game, they will > learn > > > it. > > > > I > > > > consider it to be weeding out the weak. > > > > > > > > -Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Alex Guichet <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Well basically I feel that hammer is not a good map editor for > > > > designers... > > > > > Hammer, in my opinion, is more suited for programmers. So we're > > working > > > > > with > > > > > tools designed for "programmer art". I think that if there is a > much > > > more > > > > > powerful editor with easier to use tools (don't say it's not > > possible) > > > > than > > > > > I have a feeling that the quality of maps will skyrocket. And maps > > are > > > > > pretty good now. I have a lot of map maker friends (one who has a > > > > published > > > > > community map on TF2) that say Hammer doesn't get the job done in > > terms > > > > of > > > > > design. > > > > > I'm not really talking about major major changes yet, but some > basic > > > > > additions are: > > > > > 1) Multi user map design. (More than one editor working on a map at > > the > > > > > same > > > > > time, be able to watch changes in (close to) real time > > > > > 2) Preprogrammed (and editable) entity tools for maps... stuff like > > > drag > > > > > and > > > > > drop train tracks... click to place CP's... etc. Really just to > make > > it > > > > > easier for designer. > > > > > 3) Drag and Drop everything. Drag and drop a model on to the > ground, > > > drag > > > > a > > > > > texture onto a wall, etc. > > > > > 4) Better Model and Texture browsers. Tagging. Tag all of the > > skyboxes, > > > > > custom textures, walls, tf textures, anything you want. Works for > > both > > > > > models and textures (at the moment). > > > > > > > > > > Anything else I should add? I'm only working on community feedback > > for > > > > what > > > > > should go into this editor. I consider everything. > > > > > > > > > > Alex Guichet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Brandished <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > (Redirected by <[email protected]>) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait, what do you mean by "make a DESIGNER"? > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, late reply, I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > > From: Alex Guichet <[email protected]> > > > > > > To: Discussion of Half-Life Mapping < > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:00:37 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [hlmappers] Source Engine/Hammer Size maximum size > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. This is really helping. > > > > > > I'm trying to oriented source engine mapping solution by > > > > > > reverse engineering the VMF file (of sorts)... so far I've got > some > > > > > simple > > > > > > brushwork going... I just want to have warnings that will let a > > > > designer > > > > > > know when they're hitting a limit (if it's even necessary). > > > > > > > > > > > > So far this is great help. Anything you map makers want that you > > > think > > > > is > > > > > > crap or needs to be changed in hammer? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > > archives, > > > > > > please visit: > > > > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlmappers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > archives, > > > > > please visit: > > > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlmappers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > > > > please visit: > > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlmappers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > > please visit: > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlmappers > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlmappers > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlmappers > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlmappers > > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlmappers
