William, Schmid´s design is similar to the old Alex Bb-high-F, so nothing new. Connecting two valves for simultane action is not an affair, but it becomes an affair, if four pairs of rotary valves must act precisely simultane (watch alignment !!!!), every two rotors connected by linkage (clonk-clonk).
Have you ever dismantled the valves of a Viennese horn ? And a Viennese Pumpenhorn has not twice as many valves as a four valve Bb- horn. A pumpen-valve consists of two pistons which are in a fixed relation each other. That´s the first point. These pistons are not subject to any resistance from rotation. Their action is supported by the gravidity in plus. They pistons are held back by the springs, while rotors & linkage work in two different layers shifted for 90 degrees. This fact makes them vulnerable, as we all know. The more link, the more vulnerable. William, you have a very strange attitude, avoiding to answer things which are right. You just pick things from letters. Your logical thinking should be questioned. I did not say more valves make the horn treacherous, but the linkage & the HUMAN FACTOR, which fails so often to maintain these technical things perfectly. A professional has not the time to care much about adjustment, alignment etc., as he has other things to watch (music, interpretation, tone colour, idiotic but dictatorial conductorts, stupid composers, etc.), so the horn must be constructed AS SIOMPLE as POSSIBLE so not to fail in critical situations. See the string action valves. Fantastic smooth action. But what happen if a string just broke while warming up for Bruckner no.4 Symphony ? Has that ever happen to you ? I doubt that. But it happen to me five minutes before the 2nd half of the concert, 5 minutes before Bruckner no.4, with brand new strings. How to fumble the replacement string into place, if the nerves are tied up anyway ??? Principal horn !! If this ever happen to you, - could not ! - you would never touch a string action horn again. Basta ! That is the reason, why Vienna Horn Players have their pistons equipped with additiona rubber strings - in case .... Do you know, how much the rotor alignment influences the security ? Not with a single valve action but when using two valves combined, like g# on top or "a" on first line atop the staff, using 12 because 3 might be low - after playing a 50 minutes piece near to the end, where the high entrance appears. That´s why I preach: horn as simple as possible, so repair works within minutes, software developed as high as possible (playing technique). I repeat: linking two valves together does not matter much, but if I have two valves linked each other for one single tube addition, it will be too much. Weight (you diod not comment on this), clonk-clonk (you did not comment on this either); and you evade any discussion about "software improvement" (players technique). By exactly the same pen & the same paper used by Mozart, but you will never become a Mozart, except you been born as another musical genius. ############################################################################################################################### Am 07.07.2010 um 12:49 schrieb [email protected]: > It doesn't matter. If you move a single valve and it's tied into two > so that both valves will ALWAYS move together then it doesn't matter. > > Are Viennese pumpenhorns twice as treacherous as rotor-valve single > F horns? No. They have twice as many valves, so by your logic they > must be worse. They aren't. > > Are you saying Schmid's design is meaningless even though both > valves which are tied together will always be in synch? > > -William > > > > > You miss the human factor. Many players are not capable to adjust > > single valves precisely. And we talked about a horn which should have > > two cylinder valves for each added tube length, one valve for the > > entrance & one for the exit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hans Pizka <[email protected]> > To: The Horn List <[email protected]> > Sent: Wed, Jul 7, 2010 6:43 am > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] McCracken 8 Valve Single Bb > > > William, it is nonsense again compairing a horn valve system with a > > car engine or an airplane engine. > > > > You miss the human factor. Many players are not capable to adjust > > single valves precisely. And we talked about a horn which should have > > two cylinder valves for each added tube length, one valve for the > > entrance & one for the exit. > > > > Thinking as a mechanic, it should not be any problem to bring that to > > work. Bringing the Schmid horn as a sample, is not valid, as it has > > just two valves combined on one horn, not four pairs. How about the > > added weight ? How about the clonk-clonk developing by the time ? Most > > hornplayers hunt for shorns with reduced weight. Now, added weight > > should be better perhaps ??? Sorry, I cannot follow. > > > > And the human factor again: how to dismantle & remount everything, as > > so many tend to do this on do-it-yourself method, special the > amateurs. > > > > And the additional weight: > > Listen, I am a quite strong person, adapted to horn playing since > > childhood (9), holding the horn free for many reason, but exposed to > > play the horn for several hours daily, sometimes up to ten hours & > > more (studio work plus opera etc.). Now as retired, I feel that > > holding the horn (same with violin), takes its toll on the persons > > left shoulder by the time. I finally have got real difficulties, not > > holding the horn, but taking on my shirt e.g. Have to start with left > > arm first (difficult for a right hander). > > > > William, I am understanding your technical view, but a horn should be > > constructed as simple as possible, so the player be free for the > > musical interpretation, free for colouring the sound, etc. WITHOUT > > watching the technical aspects permanently. If you play in your past > > tiime, no problem or less problems, but not if you make a living > > playing a musical instrument. > > > > This view divides us. > > > > PS: I am working on a special design for a horn with all Mozart, > > Weber, Strauss, Hindemith, Gliere, Haydn & other concertos integrated > > on the one chip & all symphonies & operas & the chamber works on > > another chip, so I just have to bring the horn with the mouthpiece to > > my lips, push a certain button, blow some air into the horn & it works > > perfectly; even loudness & articulation can be preprogrammed. I have > > begun to add something to this program, so I just hang the horn on a > > music stand, the attached camera will have a look to the conductor to > > synchronize with his beat. I tried that, but the result was > > insufficiant, as the conducter was faster than the orchestera the one > > time, but slower the next time. Any recommendation ?? Perhaps ?? > > > > ############################################################################################################################# > > Am 07.07.2010 um 11:21 schrieb [email protected]: > > > >> With all due respect, from a mechanical perspective, it is quite > >> easy to have two rotary valves operate simultaneously: > >> > >> http://www.osmun.com/prod/Schmid/es4g_lg.jpg > >> > >> Schmid incorporates this into his triples and descants - and they > >> work quite well. If you want the valves to operate so that they are > >> on/off at the same time, you just need a bar to connect them with a > >> single pivot. If you want both to be on/on or off/off, then you need > >> a bar between them without a central pivot. > >> > >> With a solid bar and no central pivot, you could have as many valves > >> as you wanted operating at the same time. > >> > >> This should sound familiar to anyone who has ever driven a car or > >> looked under the hood. Standard cars have 4 pistons which can > >> operate in a smooth cycle thanks to a solid crankshaft. So at one > >> fourth of each part of the turn the pistons operate a separate > >> stroke of the four stroke process to keep the crankshaft turning. A > >> six cylinder is the same but with more parts of a turn. An eight > >> cylinder can have eight, etc. There are engines with up to 16 > >> pistons (or more) and each piston can have at least 4 valves. That's > >> why you may have heard of a 32 valve V8. > >> > >> You may argue that a lot can go wrong with operating a lot of valves > >> on a horn - but a car (or prop engine) does this cycle several > >> thousand times per minute - and sometimes has to do this hours per > >> day for years - with little maintenance. > >> > >> I'd like to see one etude that is going to put as much stress on a > >> horn in regards to simultaneous valve operation as a Pratt and > >> Whitney airplane engine from 70 years ago. > >> > >> > >> > >> -William > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Hans Pizka <[email protected]> > >> To: The Horn List <[email protected]> > >> Sent: Wed, Jul 7, 2010 1:55 am > >> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] McCracken 8 Valve Single Bb > >> > >> > >> What should two valves, one at the entrance to the added tube, the > >> > >> other at the exit from that tube improve ? When they first built the > >> > >> Viennese Valves, nobody had the idea to use the idea of the beer tap > >> > >> to construct a rotary valve, which does not rotate any way, but can >> be > >> > >> turned the one or the opposite way. Combining two of these rotors >> is a > >> > >> very delicate operation as it surely will make adjusting the valves > >> > >> double complicate. It also makes the horn ready for clumsy action by > >> > >> too many factors. I have not seen any such instrument, but I can > >> > >> imagine, that it was constructed to have both "half"-valves open >> "with > >> > >> the wind". But when closing the valve, the two halves will close > >> > >> "against the wind" anyway. > >> > >> > >> > >> The reason to construct such, is the same always: to improve playing > >> > >> by modifying the hardware. > >> > >> If one has difficulties to slur from open note to a note not >> available > >> > >> as open note, they try to improve the valve action (opening). > >> > >> > >> > >> The invention of the valves was not very successful at the >> beginning & > >> > >> questioned by the composers, because the "software" (playing > >> > >> technique) could not be improved quickly enough. It was not the >> finger > >> > >> technique, it was the breath control needed for the "new" slurs. If > >> > >> this is not improved, -and many players are not able to control their > >> > >> breath enough to camouflage the defect of valve slurs- then no > >> > >> technical installation on the instrument would be able to help out. > >> > >> > >> > >> Just listen to some very few superb handhorn players, who treat their > >> > >> instrument in a way, one hardly can distinguish between open & > >> > >> "manipulated" notes. That´s it. > >> > >> > >> > >> ############################################################################################################################### > >> > >> > >> > >> Am 07.07.2010 um 06:02 schrieb [email protected]: > >> > >> > >> > >>> I tried to sketch out the idea (Vienna pumpen horns have 6 valves) > >> > >>> and I could see how it works, but if they're 8 rotor valves I'd > >> > >>> really like to see how they are arranged, if the concept really > >> > >>> works, and if it improves anything. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I think the idea is to allow the air to go through all of the valves > >> > >>> regardless of what fingering you play so that valve combinations > >> > >>> don't 'feel' longer or different. But then again, when I have used a > >> > >>> single Bb for anything I rarely use any combinations of valves and > >> > >>> most things can be played with 1 or 2 or just 3 for 1 and 2. I like > >> > >>> shorter horns wherever possible. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I'm surprised Hornplayer.net doesn't have a collection of odd valve > >> > >>> layouts or even better resolution photos of the V2. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> As another thought, maybe we horn players are self-conscious about > >> > >>> what our horns look like and don't want them to look too abnormal > >> > >>> when in reality most people outside of our section would never be > >> > >>> able to tell the difference. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> -William > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >> > >>> From: David A. Jewell <[email protected]> > >> > >>> To: The Horn List <[email protected]> > >> > >>> Sent: Tue, Jul 6, 2010 11:26 pm > >> > >>> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] McCracken 8 Valve Single Bb > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I don't have a photo of it, does one even exist? However, I think I > >> > >>> can explain > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> the concept after reading the archive. Each valve slide has an > >> > >>> input and an > >> > >>> > >> > >>> output valve, thus making for valves. I am presuming that the other > >> > >>> two valves > >> > >>> > >> > >>> are for a stopping or "C: valve. Think of each valve as one half of > >> > >>> a Vienna > >> > >>> > >> > >>> valve, where instead of two pistons each valve key has two rotors. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> It truly would be something to see. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Paxmaha > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> ________________________________ > >> > >>> > >> > >>> From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> To: [email protected] > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 5:07:54 PM > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Subject: [Hornlist] McCracken 8 Valve Single Bb > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I was randomly looking up horns and I came across a Hornplayer.net > >> > >>> archive > >> > >>> > >> > >>> mentioning the bi-valve McCracken single Bb. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I'm trying to work out in my brain how this is done, but I can't > >> > >>> figure it out. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Does anyone have any photos of this thing? > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> -William > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> > >>> > >> > >>> post: [email protected] > >> > >>> > >> > >>> unsubscribe or set options at > >> > >>> > >> > >>> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/paxmaha%40yahoo.com > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> > >>> > >> > >>> post: [email protected] > >> > >>> > >> > >>> unsubscribe or set options at >>> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> > >>> post: [email protected] > >> > >>> unsubscribe or set options at >>> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/hpizka%40me.com > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> post: [email protected] > >> > >> unsubscribe or set options at >> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> post: [email protected] > >> unsubscribe or set options at >> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/hpizka%40me.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > post: [email protected] > > unsubscribe or set options at > https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > post: [email protected] > unsubscribe or set options at > https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/hpizka%40me.com _______________________________________________ post: [email protected] unsubscribe or set options at https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
