Why not ? Were a comfortable solution for the Bb-players, but not
for the orchestra. The problem is, that it "horns" too much in many
(Bb) horn players brain ...... hoho.

#########################################################
Am 14.03.2011 um 14:37 schrieb [email protected]:

> Fingerings could be worse - and there are always alternatives and things  
> you can do to alleviate the problem (including practice). But those that 
> don't  wish to play the piece in E - do they ask the entire orchestra to 
> transpose  so they don't have to deal with E parts in Brahms 4?
> 
> -William
> 
> 
> In a message dated 3/14/2011 9:32:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
> [email protected] writes:
> 
> Birdalone produced a facsimile of the old print. I own the old  print. By 
> the way,
> I provided them with the third part of the Dauprat Horn  methode, which 
> they produced
> as a big folio format volume with all 3 parts,  a wonderful new edition, 
> including the
> English translation.
> 
> yes,  William, the Krufft Sonata sounds better in E, but the notoric  
> B-flat-players
> fear to break their fingers when playing in E. Hahaha ! If  one has studied 
> violin,
> this is no problem. If one places the fingers on  the keys like wurstel, 
> the problems
> are perfect as they are when throwing  the fingers up or spreading them in 
> the  air.
> 
> ###################################################################
> Am  14.03.2011 um 14:00 schrieb [email protected]:
> 
>> Birdalone in the US  (I think) published an E version, but the piano part 
> 
>> did not  have the Horn accompaniment. I prefer it in E. To me it just 
> sounds   
>> better. Maybe I have synthesesia, but certain keys have different  
> 'flavors' 
>> for  me. 
>> 
>> -William
>> 
>> 
>> In a message dated 3/14/2011 8:38:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight  Time,  
>> [email protected] writes:
>> 
>> Yes, it  is.  I have rewritten it to my iMAC & have two versions now 
> ready, 
>> in  F or  in E-flat. 
>> Could also make it in E, the original tonality,  but this is  published 
> by 
>> Billaudot in
>> Paris, I guess. I  have the two versions ready  now.
>> 
>> ####################################################################
>> Am  14.03.2011 um 13:25 schrieb [email protected]:
>> 
>>> This reminds me of  the Krufft Sonata. In some ways the piano part is  
>> just  
>>> as  difficult as the Beethoven. At  least, as I've been told by 
> pianists. 
>>> 
>>> -William
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In a message dated  3/14/2011  6:43:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
>>> [email protected]  writes:
>>> 
>>> Thanks,   interesting reading on this cursed  day.  (If you are outside  
>> the  
>>> US,
>>> it's the first  work day  of Day Light Savings Time.  So instead of  
>> getting  
>>> up
>>> at 5 AM, it's 4 AM masquerading as 5 AM by act  of   Congress.)  
>>> 
>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>> From:  [email protected]  [mailto:[email protected]] On  
>> Behalf
>>> Of  Gary Greene
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 9:07   PM
>>> To:  Horn-List
>>> Subject: [Hornlist]  Accompanied  Sonatas
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 13  March  2011,  [email protected] wrote regarding the 
>> Beethoven
>>> Sonata "I  had  always assumed that this work  was for solo horn with 
> piano
>>> accompaniment. I  was listening  to it yesterday and recalled what Hans  
>> has
>>> said  about the  Mozart work for string and horn, the horn was  part of  
> the
>>> ensemble.   Is that the case the Beethoven  that  it is a work as much 
> for
>>> piano as it is  for  horn?"
>>> 
>>> The Beethoven sonata, along with his sonatas  for cello/piano   and
>>> violin/piano are part of the last  gasp of a tradition sometimes  called 
> 
>> the
>>> "accompanied keyboard sonata."  In the middle of  the 18th  century,  
>> keyboard
>>> sonatas were often given an   "obligato" instrument which  accompanied 
> the
>>> keyboard.   That  is, these were, as Hans points out by  given us the 
>> original
>>> title of the Beethoven horn sonata, keyboard  sonatas  accompanied by  
>> another
>>> instrument and  not sonatas for a solo instrument   accompanied by the 
>>> keyboard
>>> (which is how we conceptualize  them   today).  These were different 
> from a
>>> parallel  tradition  that involved  a solo instrument accompanied by  
>> keyboard,
>>> in which latter case the  keyboard part was  often  simply a 
> thoroughbass 
>> line
>>> that the  keyboardist was  expected to  realize.  Two different views of 
> a
>>> sonata involving   keyboard and solo instrument  existing side by side 
> in 
>> the
>>> 18th    century.
>>> 
>>> Having said that, let me add the  expected  musicological  waffling!  :-)
>>> 
>>> 1.  That a work  might be entitled something  like  "sonata for piano 
> with 
>>> horn
>>> accompaniment" does not  mean that the  piano part could be  played 
> minus 
>> the
>>> horn as a solo sonata.  The horn  part is   obbligato (obligatory).
>>> 2.  "Accompaniment" did not  then  carry  the negative weight of being a 
>>> lesser
>>> or merely  supporting role.  The  term would  have suggested a
>>> partnership--chamber music.
>>> 3.   Performers today playing  such sonatas therefore should  not 
> relegate
>>> their  keyboard  players to the background  reflexively; it's a joint 
>> effort.
>>> So,    [email protected], the answer to your question is "yes."
>>> 4.   But in some cases, the musical content DOES indicate  a   
> subordinate
>>> relationship of one performer in favor  of another,  so...it's  not a 
> joint
>>> effort.
>>> 
>>> So be aware of  these traditions but also look at  the  music to see if 
> the
>>> composer is communicating a partnership or a  lead  actor with a  
>> supporting
>>> player...and be  aware that the supporting player is   not necessarily  
> the
>>> keyboard.
>>> 
>>> One other lesson   here:  all of  this points up the need to know what 
> the
>>> composer wrote.  We usually  think of this in terms of pitches  and  
>> rhythms,
>>> but what a composer calls a   piece is very often a clue  to his intent. 
> 
>> An
>>> 18th-century sinfonie  concertante and a  concerto for multiple  
>> instruments
>>> might strike us today  as  seeming  like pretty much the same thing, but 
> a
>>> composer then was   likely  thinking of two different kinds of things 
> when 
>> he
>>> labeled  the pieces as two  different genres.   Same way when Wagner has 
> 
>> an
>>> oveture for Rienzi  but  a prelude for Lohengrin--both are  instrumental 
>>> pieces
>>> that open operas, but  the terms  overture and  prelude signal  different
>>> conceptualizations.
>>> 
>>> Hope these comments are   helpful.
>>> 
>>> Gary Greene, Ph.D.
>>> 
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