Hi Bill, I'm sorry. I don't want to be argumentative. I try to stay out of this kind of discussion but I feel that this time I have to say something. I'm posting this to the horn list because that's where your scurrilous attack appeared.
Fist of all, Stuart is quite right and you are entirely wrong. Lapping the face of a rotor to correct a drag has got always to be an absolute last resort. Suggesting it to an amateur repairman is just irresponsible. I'll confess, I'm not an engineer and, as far as I know, neither is Stuart. I have, however, spent almost forty years taking horns apart and putting them back together, and have worked with and learned from Bill Tottle, Jerry Lechniuk, Walter Lawson, Bob Paxman, Johannes Finke, and Engelbert Schmid, among others. In our shop we work on hundreds of rotary valves every year. I think I'm justified in thinking I know what I'm talking about. But the quality of the advice is not really the issue. You have no right, justification, or evidence whatever upon which to base your characterization of Mr. DeHaro as a thief, a liar, or a cheat. You should take a look at his rate schedule on his website. Car mechanics around here charge more than he does and they get to bill sixty hours a week. Don't forget that what you would pay Stuart does not represent personal income for him but has to cover all the myriad expenses associated with running a business. I hope he actually gets his hourly rate-I know that we rarely do. Just for sake of comparison, what's the going rate for an engineer these days? What are your professional expenses-calculator batteries and a subscription to Popular Mechanics? In my experience in the repair business (admittedly only thirty-eight years) I think a more common scenario than the one you suggest is laying out a diagnosis for a customer and have them say something like: "That's too much money. Why don't you just lap it?" We rarely see a horn more than ten or twelve years old that doesn't need a valve rebuild. Of course, we test them by measuring the amount of blow-by and producing a numerical value. I don't rely on a "pop-test" to tell me what condition the valves are in. (I also know that the top edge of the rotor, the part you see when you look down at a valve in its casing with the bearing plate off, is the tightest part of the valve and that its fit does not indicate the fit of the rest of the rotor. No, Virginia, they don't wear evenly.) Back to Stuart's repair. Chances are, he's not just speculating but has actually seen and worked on several of these instruments. His diagnosis is correct and his solution elegant. I would also make sure that the side and end play of both bearings had been attended to. Is it too much or too expensive? I guess that depends on how much you want the valve to work. Most musicians spend next to nothing on repairs and maintenance, far less than they spend on their cars. Bill, I've known you off and on for many years and always thought you were an OK guy. I hope you will reconsider your insulting remarks and make the deserved apology to Stuart. I also hope you will give some consideration to the proposition that some of the people who work on horns all day, every day, for years on end, may A)Not be crooks, B)Not be stupid (even if they're not engineers, and C)Have some idea what they're talking about. Sincerely, Bob Osmun Osmun Music PS-I have included the previous posts to provide context. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 2:21 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] horn broken - This is awful advice I assume the people on the list have some small level of intelligence and won't attempt advise beyond their abilities. You know as well as I do that using Brasso to eliminate a small drag in a valve is practiced by the best of repairmen. That's how I learned to do it in the first place. I'm appalled that so many players avoid learning the basic maintenance on a fairly robust piece of equipment they have to rely on. I would be willing to bet that, although you made the sale on the very expensive repair you suggest, that you would use some form of fine abrasive to make sure the valve didn't still hang up. You'd look pretty silly if the customer returned with the same complaint the next day. I have done a lot of this kind of work with great success, but I have a big advantage over you in that I have a day job, so I can afford to tell the truth to the customer. I go out of my way to do jobs that 'professionals' have priced beyond the value of the instrument or beyond the m eans of a poor musician. My experience, and I suspect your's can't be that different, is the basis of some very expensive estimates is the result of leaks, easily fixed once they're located, but you can't charge enough for just fixing a leak. Have you ever found a horn that didn't need a valve job? If you go back and read my post carefully, you'll notice that I gave very clear instructions about how to determine whether the Brasso is the appropriate first recourse. If the hang up is in the rotor and casing, selling a complete rebuild of the mechanical linkage is purely a scam to run up the bill. I have no doubt that the work you do is exquisite, and with a reputation to maintain and a living to make, you are going to be inclined to propose doing as much work as possible to be absolutely sure the problem is fixed. Determining the exact cause of a problem can be very time consuming. How much can you get away charging to determine something doesn't need repair? It's so much safer, and far more lucrative, to cover every possible base, and you really don't have to figure out what's really wrong. By now you've probably figured out why I've had to learn to do my own work. No competent pro wants to deal with my attitude. -----Original Message----- From: Stuart A. de Haro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Hornlist] horn broken - This is awful advice original message: date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 00:53:29 -0400 from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: [Hornlist] horn broken - Watch for finger "Disassemble the rotor and then turn it by hand very gently (just the rotor in the casing and get a feel for the nature of the binding with the rotor free to rotate all the way round. Often a slight catch, that can lock the rotor, is caused by a crystalline deposit in just the wrong spot. More serious is a sprung casing a bit out of round. I'll assume the valves are cleaned with HCl. At this point, I would scrub all the sharp corners of the rotor and casing with Brasso and an old tooth brush. Add a little more fresh Brasso to lubricate the rotor and casing and rotate the rotor until you again feel the slight hitch. Work the rotor through the hitch until it is turning smoothly. With a sprung casing, the rotor might not want to turn all the way round and a valve rebuild is needed. However, the Brasso might get you that little extra freedom over the 90 degrees the rotor actually turns. It doesn't have to rotate all the way round." Bill, et al. With all due respect, this is really bad advice. I am appalled that you would tell someone who probably has no repair experience at all to put an abrasive on their valve, even one as mild as Brasso. What are you thinking? Absent from your post, BTW, is the need (and method) to clean the Horn to get said abrasive out of the casing and off of the valve. If any of the people on this list care about your instruments, you should definitely not try this. You should never polish valves, EVER. You will be removing metal. If you take your Horn to a tech and they tell you they're going to polish your valves, take your Horn back from them and leave. It is only going to make your problems worse and more numerous. Sincerely, Stuart de Haro, Brass Repairman Stuart A. de Haro, Custom Horns, Leadpipes, Brass Repair and Modification (217) 377-1462 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.deharohorns.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! 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