On 2009/02/12, at 3:00, horn-requ...@music.memphis.edu wrote:
message: 7
date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:43:40 -0000 (GMT)
from: "Kit Wolf" <c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk>
subject: Re: AW: [Hornlist] shortest valve slide
Kit, didn´t you see my explanation, why the first valve came as a
full
step valve first ?
Of course. And it's obviously true and relevant. But I'm not convinced
it is the CAUSE of the present layout.
Yes, I saw it. I don't think anything I've said contradicts it, and
arguably it actually supports it. If the valve positions were fixed
before
the 3rd valve was introduced, then the explanation that the valves
could
only physically fit on the horn in their modern-day order is
unlikely to
be the correct one. So we need to look for a different explanation,
and
yours is the best.
Agreed.
What your post doesn't entirely cover is that 1) there's no logical
reason
the physical order of the valves needs to correspond to their
importance
or the order they were introduced and 2) it's still quite
interesting that
the order of the main valves does seem to have been fixed so early.
Agreed.
If the 2nd finger can move faster than the index finger as someone
suggested, then it would make more sense to introduce the full tone
slide
for the middle finger and later add a half-step for the first finger,
I don't agree with this part. I agree that, as Hans has explained, the
whole tone valve is the most essential overall but, as someone else
pointed out, a whole tone trill is most often lipped, while it's the
semitone trill that needs to be fingered.
However on second thoughts, the reason I find my second finger can
trill faster than my first MAY be a result of lip-trilling whole-tone
trills i.e. less PRACTICE for the first finger and more for the
second. :-)
I wonder: did handhorn players who used the first valved horns feel
stability problems? I.e. did lifting one finger to operate a valve
(presumably piston) affect their grip on the horn at the point nearest
the mouth, causing wobbles? This would affect their perception of
which finger should be used for which role, gripping or pistoning.
I imagine pinkie hooks came after valves.
even
if it historically makes more sense to introduce the full-tone slide
before the semitone slide. I think the idea that the middle finger is
stronger than the index is dubious, but if you think about it in
this way
then the problem does seem to be one of ergonomics as much as
harmonics.
At one point there was a debate over whether the early valved horn was
meant to be played chromatically or whether the valves were just
meant to
facilitate crook changes. My understanding is that this has largely
been
debunked, but if it were true, then there'd be no strong reason to
fix the
order of the keys. You wouldn't need the 'muscle memory' that is
necessary
for playing chromatic scales, and aesthetic or acoustic considerations
would be better reasons to set the valve-order than mere convention.
Finally, if you look at almost any other mechanical device, such as
typewriters, there was a long period of experimentation where
'anything
goes' was the rule of the day and every machine had a different
keyboard.
As another example, I think I'm correct in saying that the order of
the
foot pedals on very early cars differed from one manufacturer to
another.
If none of the 2-valved instruments has its valves in the reverse
order
then I think we can infer there's a good reason for it.
Nice comparison. Similarly the positions of pedals and switches on
motorcycles still vary between makers and between types of use. Racing
bikes and road bikes (I hear) have opposite gear pedal actions.
But, like biological evolution, I suspect that the intermediate
stages, fossils of which are often hard to find, may not have existed
for very long. Though the advantages (of one valve) over the old model
were great, the advantages of further evolution, (2,3,4 valves) were
similarly great and quickly superseded the simpler models. Things
peaked out here. A 5th valve brings considerable disadvantages too,
so the "fittest" became the dominant species. While others (triple
horns and hand horns) still survive in their own special niches, the
intermediate 1 and 2 valve horns have become extinct.
Thanks everyone for your input.
By the way, a contributor from to the Japanese list went to his books
and reported that, in the early 19th Century, there were 2-valve horns
with first finger on the semitone valve. He also reminded me of the
"French" ascending 3rd valve.
Simon_______________________________________________
post: horn@music.memphis.edu
unsubscribe or set options at
http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
