Hi, Dale:
My comments inline.
On 15/12/17 20:41, Dale Kunce wrote:
Rafael,
Saying things like "x is childish" is not in keeping with good manners.
Maybe not with your own, cultural, manners. It's ok for me. That's what
I thought when I read his email. Honestly.
I think the larger point is that this space is not "gentle."
Not gentle for you. Not for everybody.
We clearly
need a CoC or at the very least to enforce the rules we (OSM) already
have in place. OSM is not so special from every other internet
community. Most software projects, data projects, and even media
companies have open CoC and expectations for how you behave in there
space. OSM is not unique, we need to set clear expectations about how to
act in this space.
"CoC at the very least", no less.
Enforce... yes, always enforce.
Software projects, data projects and media are different. I refer you to
Christoff Hoffmann's emails, where he explains you clearly why OSM is
not comparable to those.
And how do you think we have to behave in OSM? Not only me. Africans,
Asians, Southamericans... That won't lead anywhere, I assure you.
Is it so hard for people to be nice to one another?
No. It isn't really. I use to make that effort since back to 1991, not
always with success. Human beings are not perfect. But human beings
usually like freedom, including speech.
I think it behoves
everyone in this community to make the affirmation of being nice to one
another the same way we all made the commitment to the ODBL.
ODbL and freedom of speech in the same tense. Really? The first is law;
the second is something we don't need legally (nor morally nor practically).
I think it
behoves us all to call out bad behavior when we see it.
Again: what is bad behaviour. Some people here don't see bad behaviour
in Ralf's email. Some others do. I respect fully both of the "groups".
Keep others
honest and on topic not through enforcing a CoC but through the
accepting the rules outlined in the CoC or etiquette guidelines.
I have already said that etiquette guidelines are that: guidelines. I
haven't seen them enforced yet, and I would like to know who would
enforce them, and with what mandate.
Respectfully,
Rafael.
On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Rafael Avila Coya
<ravilac...@gmail.com <mailto:ravilac...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi, Pete:
Yes, I forgot to say my opinion about the user who said he was
unsubscribing.
In my opinion, it's childish to quit an open forum, where anyone can
subscribe, just because somebody says something you don't like.
Specially when you see already some people telling you that no one
can control what others have to say.
If it was me, I would say it politely, like "I think not having a
tool to create squared buildings in iD is a pity, because if we had,
more squared buildings would be mapped". But what I, you or Dale
think about politeness is something that depend on many factors, the
most important of them cultural. Believe me when I tell you that I
didn't find it unpolite, and it passed unadverted to me.
We, the overall OSM community, are very gentle and pacific in
general, so we can govern ourselves without the need of any CoC. All
this thread tells me very clear how negative a CoC in OSM lists
would be.
Are we confortable with that? We can tell him things similar to
those that others said already to him, in the way "what one person
says, whether you don't like it, is what one person says, but not
what the rest thinks. And maybe he wasn't meaning that he hates you,
but he hates that you iD devs don't have a building tool like JOSM".
There are ways to say the same better and more clear. But what I am
clearly against is to put him under the foot of a CoC. Only the
name, CoC, scares me a lot.
I hope I make me more clear now.
Cheers,
Rafael.
On 15/12/17 19:39, Pete Masters wrote:
Hi Rafael, I see your point about the CoC and ownership of the
list. But that was only the third paragraph of Dale's email.
The fact remains that a person was told they are one of a hated
group of people and left the list. It's a loss. Are we
comfortable with that? Is it just the way it is and everyone has
to live with it?
Personally, I am not comfortable with it and welcome further
discussion.
Cheers,
Pete
On 15 Dec 2017 18:24, "Rafael Avila Coya" <ravilac...@gmail.com
<mailto:ravilac...@gmail.com> <mailto:ravilac...@gmail.com
<mailto:ravilac...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
Hi, Dan:
The thing here is that hot@openstreetmap.org
<mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org>
<mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org
<mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org>> is, as far as I know, an OSM mailing
list, not HOT US inc.'s. I would find it weard that another OSM
mailing list was governed by the Red Cross, and that
talk-es was
governed by the Spanish Government, for example.
Cheers,
Rafael.
On 15/12/17 19:11, Dan S wrote:
Hi
It does seem to me that more clarity would be good
here, i.e.
slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the
hot@ mailing
list.
Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably
not clear
to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether
they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether
the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the
info page
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>>> to make clear
whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.
Best
Dan
_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org <mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org>
<mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org <mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org>>
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>>
_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org <mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org>
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>
--
sent from my mobile device
Dale Kunce
http://normalhabit.com
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