Hello Vincent, I had 2 thoughts from the conversation: - if you are worried about online data disappearing, a good tool to help prevent that is https://archive.org/ if you haven't used it before, you can submit a URL and they just grab a copy of the content and keep it forever. It doesn't work for everything, some complex webpages end up broken on their copy, but it's a good way to ensure data remains online in the future. It's free, their goal is just to create a "history" of the internet, as a lot of it is very transient. I'm not sure about the licensing implications. It might be worth checking if the data you mentioned isn't already on it, maybe by looking at the Malian IGM site or the French ones a few years ago?
- if you're not able to access the data in Mali, but it was created with EU public funds, you might be able to use freedom of information laws on the EU side (in France, it's called "demande d'accès à un document administratif", you can read more about it, in French, on https://madada.fr, it's free)(for full transparency, I helped setup the site). The gist of FOI is that any person can request data from public bodies, or organizations that do work on behalf of the public. By law, these organizations have to provide the data. In France, the law even says that any data shared this way must be open data (not sure about the licensing though). Obviously, if the data isn't there, it's useless, but if it is in some drawer somewhere, it might help. The OSM community has already used this process before to get data from some public bodies. Might be worth a try if you can't get it any other way. It's a slow process, but sometimes it works :) Good luck! Laurent On 3 April 2020 02:00:58 BST, Vincent Dawans <dawa...@gmail.com> wrote: >Thank you Enock and Jorieke for all that great information! > >I am glad that at the minimum the IGM is aware of the existence of the >OSM >community and that some local OSM volunteers were even involved. I will >definitely get in touch with them to see what help I might be able to >provide to encourage the IGM to release that data or at least part of >it. > >I have worked in the development sector long enough to know that these >seemingly absurd situations are unfortunately common. Not just with >geographic data but with all sorts of information. In an ideal world, >data >produced using public funds would of course be made publicly available >(as >is the case with some organizations -- the UN for instance if >particularly >good with this I think). This is especially true in the context of >developing countries where there is little possibility to monetize the >data >on a large scale anyway, so what happens most of the time is that the >information sits in a drawer somewhere and totally underused and then >forgotten overtime and no longer available. > >The problem lies in part at the origin of the financing, in this case >the >European Development Fund. Ideally a clear mandate could have been >given to >allow some of the data to be open source from the start. I don't think >the >situation is the result of bad intentions, just lack of awareness of >this >problem. I have some contact at the EU delegation in Bamako and will >also >try to get some information from them as to what policies are in place >regarding such matters as data sharing. > >Sincerely, > >Vincent Dawans > >On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 4:03 AM <hot-requ...@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > >> Send HOT mailing list submissions to >> hot@openstreetmap.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> hot-requ...@openstreetmap.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> hot-ow...@openstreetmap.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of HOT digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Mali - Accessing and using data from the Malian Geographic >> Institute (Vincent Dawans) >> 2. Re: Mali - Accessing and using data from the Malian >> Geographic Institute (Enock Seth Nyamador) >> 3. Re: Mali - Accessing and using data from the Malian >> Geographic Institute (Jorieke Vyncke) >> >> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 16:51:03 -0700 >> From: Vincent Dawans <dawa...@gmail.com> >> To: hot@openstreetmap.org >> Subject: [HOT] Mali - Accessing and using data from the Malian >> Geographic Institute >> Message-ID: >> < >> calisao8gv8etno9i+uqyrpptxs_ecsncmq0d5cjfpujcvbo...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi, >> >> I have been working with a local NGO in Mali for about 10 years, in >the >> Kayes region (west side of the country). Over the years we have added >to >> openstreetmap the names of the villages we work in based on local >> knowledge. >> >> About a year ago I became aware of a mapping effort by the French >> Geographic Institute that remapped the country from 2012 to 2016. >This was >> funded by the European Development Fund (EDF). The end result >> produced printed maps at 1/200000 with quite a bit of details, with a >scan >> available online at http://www.igm-mali.ml/Visionneuse/ >> >> There is a LOT of detailed information here, including the >localization and >> names of villages across the country, many of which are not currently >on >> openstreetmap. Also there is a lot of details on rivers, etc. It is >> actually quite impressive. Unfortunately the web interface only >allows to >> explore the map and see the underlying data one object at a time (by >> selecting specific layers for villages for instance). The main >website has >> a link to a “geocatalogue” from which data could arguably be >downloaded but >> unfortunately the side doesn’t load. >http://www.igm-mali.ml/geocatalogue/ >> >> There is a presentation (in French) of the project on the website of >the >> French Geographic Institute: >> https://www.ignfi.fr/fr/portfolio-item/cartographie-mali/ >> >> I have contacted the people from the French Geographic Institute but >they >> told me the project is closed and all the data is with their Malian >> counterpart. Since the “geocatalogue” is no longer online (probably >for >> technical reasons), I suspect it will be a challenge to get accessed >to >> that data. Considering the work was funded with public money (EDF), I >am >> thinking maybe it was published somewhere else? I looked on >> https://data.humdata.org/ and it is not there. I will keep looking... >> >> I can tell you that locally people do not even really know that these >maps >> exist. Some paper maps might have been printed and distributed in >Bamako, >> but it is not the best way to disseminate that information in the >rest of >> the country. Openstreetmap is definitely better for that. It is a >shame >> that all that work was done and barely used. Still I will try to have >my >> Malian colleagues contact their local Geographic Institute but I know >it is >> going to be a slow process. >> >> Is anybody in the HOT community aware of that mapping effort that >took >> place in Mali? Is it typical for that kind of publicly funded project >to >> NOT share their data with the HOT community? >> >> Still the data is available “manually” from >> http://www.igm-mali.ml/Visionneuse/ (as long as the site is up). What >it >> not clear to me is whether I can legally use that data to update >> openstreetmap manually. Considering this was funded with public >money, >> would the information be considered public domain? >> >> Any help/pointers is appreciated since mapping is not my main area of >> expertise. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Vincent Dawans >> Senior Technical Advisor >> Virtue Ventures >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/attachments/20200401/1c8551d2/attachment-0001.htm >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 00:05:02 +0000 >> From: Enock Seth Nyamador <enocks...@gmail.com> >> To: Vincent Dawans <dawa...@gmail.com>, Nathalie Sidibe >> <sidibenathali...@gmail.com>, Araba Coulibaly ><b.rab...@gmail.com >> >, >> Emmanuel Bama <bamaemman...@gmail.com> >> Cc: HOT <hot@openstreetmap.org> >> Subject: Re: [HOT] Mali - Accessing and using data from the Malian >> Geographic Institute >> Message-ID: >> < >> cagrknys84nv-os74g2bjgz5juxoqzcfbzacxwqgplyekkok...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Interesting and very good data source. Looping in @Nathalie Sidibe >> <sidibenathali...@gmail.com> @Araba Coulibaly <b.rab...@gmail.com> >> @Emmanuel >> Bama <bamaemman...@gmail.com> in Mali. The scanned map is >copyrighted to >> IGN, I believe they are the best institution to talk to. >> >> Best, >> Enock >> >> Le mer. 1 avr. 2020 à 23:52, Vincent Dawans <dawa...@gmail.com> a >écrit : >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > I have been working with a local NGO in Mali for about 10 years, in >the >> > Kayes region (west side of the country). Over the years we have >added to >> > openstreetmap the names of the villages we work in based on local >> knowledge. >> > >> > About a year ago I became aware of a mapping effort by the French >> > Geographic Institute that remapped the country from 2012 to 2016. >This >> was >> > funded by the European Development Fund (EDF). The end result >> > produced printed maps at 1/200000 with quite a bit of details, with >a >> scan >> > available online at http://www.igm-mali.ml/Visionneuse/ >> > >> > There is a LOT of detailed information here, including the >localization >> > and names of villages across the country, many of which are not >currently >> > on openstreetmap. Also there is a lot of details on rivers, etc. It >is >> > actually quite impressive. Unfortunately the web interface only >allows to >> > explore the map and see the underlying data one object at a time >(by >> > selecting specific layers for villages for instance). The main >website >> has >> > a link to a “geocatalogue” from which data could arguably be >downloaded >> but >> > unfortunately the side doesn’t load. >> http://www.igm-mali.ml/geocatalogue/ >> > >> > There is a presentation (in French) of the project on the website >of the >> > French Geographic Institute: >> > https://www.ignfi.fr/fr/portfolio-item/cartographie-mali/ >> > >> > I have contacted the people from the French Geographic Institute >but they >> > told me the project is closed and all the data is with their Malian >> > counterpart. Since the “geocatalogue” is no longer online (probably >for >> > technical reasons), I suspect it will be a challenge to get >accessed to >> > that data. Considering the work was funded with public money (EDF), >I am >> > thinking maybe it was published somewhere else? I looked on >> > https://data.humdata.org/ and it is not there. I will keep >looking... >> > >> > I can tell you that locally people do not even really know that >these >> maps >> > exist. Some paper maps might have been printed and distributed in >Bamako, >> > but it is not the best way to disseminate that information in the >rest of >> > the country. Openstreetmap is definitely better for that. It is a >shame >> > that all that work was done and barely used. Still I will try to >have my >> > Malian colleagues contact their local Geographic Institute but I >know it >> is >> > going to be a slow process. >> > >> > Is anybody in the HOT community aware of that mapping effort that >took >> > place in Mali? Is it typical for that kind of publicly funded >project to >> > NOT share their data with the HOT community? >> > >> > Still the data is available “manually” from >> > http://www.igm-mali.ml/Visionneuse/ (as long as the site is up). >What it >> > not clear to me is whether I can legally use that data to update >> > openstreetmap manually. Considering this was funded with public >money, >> > would the information be considered public domain? >> > >> > Any help/pointers is appreciated since mapping is not my main area >of >> > expertise. >> > >> > Sincerely, >> > >> > Vincent Dawans >> > Senior Technical Advisor >> > Virtue Ventures >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > HOT mailing list >> > HOT@openstreetmap.org >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >> > >> >> >> -- >> -Enock >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/attachments/20200402/a265391d/attachment-0001.htm >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 11:45:43 +0100 >> From: Jorieke Vyncke <jorieke.vyn...@gmail.com> >> To: Enock Seth Nyamador <enocks...@gmail.com> >> Cc: Vincent Dawans <dawa...@gmail.com>, Nathalie Sidibe >> <sidibenathali...@gmail.com>, Araba Coulibaly ><b.rab...@gmail.com >> >, >> Emmanuel Bama <bamaemman...@gmail.com>, HOT ><hot@openstreetmap.org >> > >> Subject: Re: [HOT] Mali - Accessing and using data from the Malian >> Geographic Institute >> Message-ID: >> < >> caeo7yf5a+akdqtl5fjmqlwnm2bcqmmb-0k14vr3z-3wpeqs...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi Vincent, >> >> I was in Mali in 2015-2016 and did see this great data collection >> happening. The IGM (Institut Geographique du Mali) was behind this >effort, >> indeed sponsored by the EU and France I think. The data is indeed >owned by >> the IGM, I thought the plan was also to sell this data. It was >certainly >> not available for usage on OSM. :) >> >> The absurdity of the situation was also that several members of the >OSM >> community in Mali (Makan, Doubassin, Karim, etc.) were working as >surveyors >> for the IGM to collect all this data, but couldn't edit this on OSM >for >> their own usage. Those folks were basically doing in their free time >the >> same again to add data on OSM. Besides this, some of the staff of the >IGM >> were really supportive to the OSM Mali community and gave them access >to >> their spaces to come and map on OSM. >> >> So I would say, best to get in touch with the OSM Mali community if >you are >> not already. Enock has just given you some core members' contacts. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Jorieke >> >> Op do 2 apr. 2020 om 01:05 schreef Enock Seth Nyamador < >> enocks...@gmail.com >> >: >> >> > Interesting and very good data source. Looping in @Nathalie Sidibe >> > <sidibenathali...@gmail.com> @Araba Coulibaly <b.rab...@gmail.com> >> @Emmanuel >> > Bama <bamaemman...@gmail.com> in Mali. The scanned map is >copyrighted >> to >> > IGN, I believe they are the best institution to talk to. >> > >> > Best, >> > Enock >> > >> > Le mer. 1 avr. 2020 à 23:52, Vincent Dawans <dawa...@gmail.com> a >écrit >> : >> > >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> I have been working with a local NGO in Mali for about 10 years, >in the >> >> Kayes region (west side of the country). Over the years we have >added to >> >> openstreetmap the names of the villages we work in based on local >> knowledge. >> >> >> >> About a year ago I became aware of a mapping effort by the French >> >> Geographic Institute that remapped the country from 2012 to 2016. >This >> was >> >> funded by the European Development Fund (EDF). The end result >> >> produced printed maps at 1/200000 with quite a bit of details, >with a >> scan >> >> available online at http://www.igm-mali.ml/Visionneuse/ >> >> >> >> There is a LOT of detailed information here, including the >localization >> >> and names of villages across the country, many of which are not >> currently >> >> on openstreetmap. Also there is a lot of details on rivers, etc. >It is >> >> actually quite impressive. Unfortunately the web interface only >allows >> to >> >> explore the map and see the underlying data one object at a time >(by >> >> selecting specific layers for villages for instance). The main >website >> has >> >> a link to a “geocatalogue” from which data could arguably be >downloaded >> but >> >> unfortunately the side doesn’t load. >> http://www.igm-mali.ml/geocatalogue/ >> >> >> >> There is a presentation (in French) of the project on the website >of the >> >> French Geographic Institute: >> >> https://www.ignfi.fr/fr/portfolio-item/cartographie-mali/ >> >> >> >> I have contacted the people from the French Geographic Institute >but >> they >> >> told me the project is closed and all the data is with their >Malian >> >> counterpart. Since the “geocatalogue” is no longer online >(probably for >> >> technical reasons), I suspect it will be a challenge to get >accessed to >> >> that data. Considering the work was funded with public money >(EDF), I am >> >> thinking maybe it was published somewhere else? I looked on >> >> https://data.humdata.org/ and it is not there. I will keep >looking... >> >> >> >> I can tell you that locally people do not even really know that >these >> >> maps exist. Some paper maps might have been printed and >distributed in >> >> Bamako, but it is not the best way to disseminate that information >in >> the >> >> rest of the country. Openstreetmap is definitely better for that. >It is >> a >> >> shame that all that work was done and barely used. Still I will >try to >> have >> >> my Malian colleagues contact their local Geographic Institute but >I >> know it >> >> is going to be a slow process. >> >> >> >> Is anybody in the HOT community aware of that mapping effort that >took >> >> place in Mali? Is it typical for that kind of publicly funded >project to >> >> NOT share their data with the HOT community? >> >> >> >> Still the data is available “manually” from >> >> http://www.igm-mali.ml/Visionneuse/ (as long as the site is up). >What >> it >> >> not clear to me is whether I can legally use that data to update >> >> openstreetmap manually. Considering this was funded with public >money, >> >> would the information be considered public domain? >> >> >> >> Any help/pointers is appreciated since mapping is not my main area >of >> >> expertise. >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> >> Vincent Dawans >> >> Senior Technical Advisor >> >> Virtue Ventures >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> HOT mailing list >> >> HOT@openstreetmap.org >> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > -Enock >> > _______________________________________________ >> > HOT mailing list >> > HOT@openstreetmap.org >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/attachments/20200402/824206a3/attachment-0001.htm >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> HOT mailing list >> HOT@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of HOT Digest, Vol 122, Issue 1 >> *********************************** >>
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