Hi John, It is not that I am disparaging any individual commitment or open source - not at all.
What I find bizarre is: A) to commit to anything in the dark .. meaning before adopting as WG document where the document and enclosed within itself protocol by design could drastically change B) to hold the original commit as a valuable promise and not to insist on interoperable implementations instead. Kind regards, Robert On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 9:21 PM John Scudder <j...@juniper.net> wrote: > Hi Robert, > > I see. What I most wanted to challenge in your message was the implication > (reinforced in your note I’m replying to now) that the only meaningful > contributions are made by “companies (vendors)”. I don't agree, nor do I > agree that open source et al should be disparaged. I guess you don’t find > that “convincing enough”; if so, we shall have to disagree on that. > > —John > > On May 23, 2024, at 3:07 PM, Robert Raszuk <rob...@raszuk.net> wrote: > > Hi John, > > Yes I recall seeing this email, but it did not sound convincing enough to > me. > > The fact that Mr X says "Oh in my spare time I will implement this" to me > does not seem to be of any measurable value. At least not so much to put > this as requirement for adoption in the WG charter. > > Much better would be what we do in IDR that the draft should not progress > to IESG unless the proposed standard has been tried out in any interop > testing and interop report has been posted on the wiki page. > > Thx a lot, > R. > > > On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 8:19 PM John Scudder <j...@juniper.net> wrote: > >> Hi Robert, >> >> Your comments have already been addressed, most recently in Pete’s >> message on Monday ( >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/NAa6PvOvdPy8SmYtX1IxQ1Jj-pc/ >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/NAa6PvOvdPy8SmYtX1IxQ1Jj-pc/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!GKul0z6xuuzCnKlxpocnxhnu24YTSPe-yezafWU4_EtT-3heNA9Ryz2zHMA3kexyMDBtot4BM2D-JQ$>). >> To add, relative to your final paragraph about “hold responsible", there >> are many parts of our process that rely in part on the expectation >> participants will act in good faith, this would hardly be the first. >> >> —John >> >> On May 23, 2024, at 11:52 AM, Robert Raszuk <rob...@raszuk.net> wrote: >> >> The reality in vast majority of companies (vendors) is that commitment to >> implement something or not are no longer being driven by engineers. >> >> They are driven by marketing and product management teams who >> rarely attend IETFs. >> >> And even if there some commitment today tomorrow based on new field >> requirements it may change. >> >> With that I am really puzzled what this entire discussion is all about >> and how anyone (presumably chairs) are going to hold responsible person X >> for her or his "commitment to implement" (unless we are talking about hobby >> implementations in some private code base or open source. >> >> Thx, >> R. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 4:59 PM Dave Crocker <d...@dcrocker.net> wrote: >> >>> On 5/21/2024 9:48 AM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: >>> > Before diving into this thread, I think it's important to underscore >>> > that we're not taking anything away here. >>> >>> The premise of that assertion is that having this working group will not >>> alter the decision-making by those managing the other paths. Given >>> human nature, that seems optimistic, at best. >>> >>> >>> > The only constraint being established is: If you want this particular >>> > working group to process your work, there's a specific minimum you >>> > need to meet. >>> >>> And that minimum is both onerous and, as formal charter requirements, >>> lacking any historical precedence in the IETF. >>> >>> d/ >>> >>> -- >>> Dave Crocker >>> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>> bbiw.net >>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://bbiw.net__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!GFF-Xpl7WNYMmXdLazOIdEVSW9KL6Xm09CiJknmnTsLxtfXC3LtsMJQ9a9clI1i1sEcaD8iZEfE_fg$> >>> mast:@dcrocker@mastodon.social >>> >>> >> >
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