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Hi Atul,
[Quoting whole mail since most of it is relevant. My response at
bottom.]
>>>>> "Atul" == Atul Chitnis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Atul> Raju, This is in response to your post (archived at
Atul>
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/msg12581.html),
Atul> where you state:
>> [I personally do not agree with participating in foss.in, since
>> it will be demonstrating and promoting proprietary software
>> too. However, ILUG-Delhi can make its own decision whether to
>> participate in the event or not. I will not be a part of it
>> either way.
>>
>> -- Raju]
Atul> You aren't the only one who lurks on lists, so let me also
Atul> say something, because you certainly took things massively
Atul> out of context.
Atul> Here's your solitary post on the event list (the first in I
Atul> think 3 years):
Atul> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux-bangalore-2005/message/2294
Atul> where you listed a number of scenarios, and asked which of
Atul> these would be acceptable at FOSS.IN.
Atul> And here was my reply:
Atul> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux-bangalore-2005/message/2296
Atul> The key in that answer of mine was this:
>> From my perspective, all of them are acceptable, as long as
>> they
>>
>> - show FOSS in action - show FOSS:non-FOSS interop - answer
>> questions that people may have about FOSS - get people to
>> participate in FOSS projects/groups
Atul> In short, I clearly did *not* say that we would be
Atul> "demonstrating and promoting proprietary software too" - I
Atul> said that they are acceptable AS LONG AS they meet the above
Atul> mentioned criteria.
Atul> I then proceded to demonstrate how we are very much capable
Atul> of "weeding out" unsuitable talks from the event, by giving
Atul> examples.
Atul> Would anyone care to have a look at
Atul> http://linux-bangalore.org/2004/schedules
Atul> http://linux-bangalore.org/2003/schedules
Atul> http://linux-bangalore.org/2002/schedules
Atul> http://linux-bangalore.org/2001/schedules
Atul> and point out which talk meets your definition of
Atul> "demonstrating and promoting proprietary software too"
Atul> outside the context of demonstrating inter-op (e.g. A
Atul> windows machine shown logging into a Samba controlled
Atul> domain, or OpenOffice.org running on Windows, etc.)?
Atul> FOSS.IN is about promoting FOSS, getting people involved in
Atul> FOSS, and showing people that FOSS is feasible.
Atul> It is not about showing FOSS to be fanatic, isolationary,
Atul> disconnected from the rest of the world, or totally useless
Atul> to enterprise because they can't see it inter-operating with
Atul> the heterogenous environments they work with.
Atul> You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion.
Atul> Even if you are completely wrong.
Atul> FYI - people like Wietse Venema, Harald Welte, Brian
Atul> Behlendorf, Andi Klein, Volker Grassmuck, Deepak Saxena,
Atul> Scott Wheeler, Werner Almesberger, Andrew Cowie, Bdale
Atul> Garbee, Rasmus Lerdorf, Jeremy Zawodny, Miguel de Icaza, Nat
Atul> Friedman, etc. are just as savvy about FOSS as you are.
Atul> Some of them (like Harald Welte) would not ever participate
Atul> in a high-priced commercial "Linux" event that locks out the
Atul> community, (apart from throwing them a few patronising
Atul> scraps), and that demonstrates and promotes proprietary
Atul> software, basically following the corporate eyball trap
Atul> principle (http://atulchitnis.net/writings/eyeballtrap.php)
Atul> to make a lot of money for (who else) the proprietary
Atul> software guys. They have all spoken at our events, some of
Atul> them many years in a row, and many of them will be at the
Atul> event again this year.
Atul> Even greater FOSS promoters are scheduled to speak at
Atul> FOSS.IN this year, and they are all coming because they are
Atul> convinced that we are "the real thing", not something like
Atul> LinuxWorld.
Atul> I believe that your statement was designed to influence
Atul> others (your LUG, but also others who will have your message
Atul> forwarded to them) into staying away from FOSS.IN, which I
Atul> find grossly unfair - not to us, but to members of your
Atul> community.
Firstly, I've requested the ILUGD list admin to subscribe the address
you have posted from with message delivery disabled so that you don't
have to wait for approval for your posts to get onto the list. I'd be
glad to discuss the issues that are being raised here in any open
forum, so if you feel ILUGD isn't the right one (for any reason),
please feel free to take this to LIG or another place.
I have thought very carefully about what I said and my reasons for
saying it. Like you, I also believe in the promotion of FOSS, of
which Linux is a part. However, I also feel that FOSS needs to be
kept free of taint for multiple reasons, not the least of which is to
prevent confusion in the minds of people who do not have the same
depth of exposure to FOSS that you and I have had. This cannot be
achieved by sending out confusing signals, such as demonstrating
proprietary, non-FOSS software running on a FOSS platform.
- From what I gathered from your post which you have cited, you will be
permitting this to happen at foss.in, hence my reservations about the
clarity of purpose involved. When people see a non-FOSS application
running on a Linux platform at ``India's Biggest FOSS Event'' they
will be led to believe that FOSS is amicable to and even encourages
the use of proprietary software. Visitors will get the tacit message
that it is fine to use proprietary solutions as long as one component,
however small, of the solution is FOSS. This is a complete mockery of
the ideals behind and goals of the FOSS movement and an insult to the
FOSS community.
One argument that I have heard is that it is important to invite
participation and sponsorship from corporates in order to make the
event successful. Naturally, a company that deals in primarily
non-FOSS products would only be willing to sponsor the event or
participate if it could demonstrate its primary line of (non-FOSS)
business, and the organisers of the event would be forced to bow down
to the wishes of their financiers in some issues. Unfortunately, in
this case the ends do not justify the means -- encouraging promotion
of non-FOSS in order to be able to promote FOSS would strike anyone as
an oxymoron. If promotion of non-FOSS is the only way to be able to
scale a FOSS event to the desired size, then there is something
massively wrong with either the aims of the event or the projected
scale.
I agree that I'm not as eminent as the names you have quoted in your
message; maybe I do not have the requisite breadth of knowledge about
FOSS that these dudes from all over the world do </humble>. OTOH, I
doubt if I'll allow the purported motives of a bunch of people I've
never met to colour my discernment between right and wrong.
For instance, one of the virtues that FOSS encourages is transparency.
I like to believe that one of the reasons ILUG-Delhi is a thriving,
vibrant community today is because we have been completely transparent
in our dealings all along -- anyone is welcome to our decision-making
meetings, anyone is welcome to inspect our books of accounts, anyone
is welcome to protest in an open forum if the democratically elected
managing committee isn't performing satisfactorily. None of the
members of the managing committee have been able to make money from
their positions, and I hope that they never will. In fact, most of
them (and many of the members) have been spending out of their own
pockets with no hope of reimbursement to ensure that ILUGD continues
to promote freedom in software as effectively as it can.
Since you bring the community into this discussion, can I make a
request for a similar openness in the dealings of foss.in? As things
stand today, the connection between the promoters of foss.in and the
community seem rather tenuous to me. You will understand me when I
say that not knowing how much money is going to whom tends to put a
bit of a damper on the concept of community. While I'm sure that the
motives of the promoters of foss.in are pure, more transparency in its
dealings would definitely encourage a feeling of fellowship and
community ownership.
I apologise in advance if the assumption I've made about the promotion
of proprietary software at foss.in is incorrect.
Regards,
- -- Raju
- --
Raj Mathur [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kandalaya.org/
GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
It is the mind that moves
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