Dear Sir I am always fascinated by your detailed mail and analysis of each species.Yourself and Dr. Gurcharan sir are two of the most senior members of our group and we always admire your thoroughness. The information on rarity, although is a part of my friend D.Sc. thesis work, it is actually based on lot of cumulative information of his, mine, our common mentor, our juniors and persons involved in various other projects in the region. Infact I had seen A. pugioniformis only once at the entrance of Valley of Flowers in 2009 July. You are right if we could have more detailed information on habitat ecology then it could have been interesting and helpful in tracing the plant back. It is also true that often the plants are overlooked or not found and it happens due to bad timing or due to other reasons and also because sometimes people dont share information :)...
I will tell you one funny story: One day, one scientist came with a picture of an orchid to my mentor, Prof G.S.Rawat of Wildlife Institute of India. He claimed that the picture was taken in western Himalaya. My mentor called me and I said this is not found in western Himalaya and my mentor said, "the grass behind the flower is not found in western Himalaya and even the soil is different". The guy who brought the picture was in no case agreeing that the picture was not taken in western himalaya. He left. But ultimately one week later, he called back to say that the picture was taken in Sikkim and not in Western Himalaya. Why I said this, is because it is always good to have any additional information on habit and habitat which sometimes people disregard. In India some people say that they are taxonomists while others say that they are ecologist. And I always say, taxonomy is part of ecology. Thanks and best regards Pankaj On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 10:39 PM, C CHADWELL < chrischadwell...@btinternet.com> wrote: > Thanks again Dr Kumar for additional information. > > I consider it most useful to begin including ecological information as to > the habitats of species in floras > including associated species (provided these have been correctly > identified). I have minimal knowledge > of orchids - Orchidaceae really is JUST ANOTHER plant family to me, so am > not referring to an example > from this family but I have noticed a habit of listing companion species > for a plant which occurs the full > length of the Himalaya from say the Eastern Himalaya, thinking this > applies in the West as well, when the > companion species found in the East may not grow..... One has to be > cautious about extrapolating especially > from very few examples. It may be that the examples seen are atypical. > > But should be encouraged. Checklists and floras that have almost > exclusively taxonomic and nomenclatural > information can be of LIMITED USE to most people. > > In the UK, we divided the country up into Counties. The most recent > 'Flora of Berkshire' e.g. was compiled > by a plant ecologist (immensely knowledgeable) which contains a wealth of > associated information including > entomological as to which species of plants are food plants or pollinated > by certain insects etc. > > To me this BRINGS the flora alive. As you know better than I, orchids > often exist very much "in association" > (as do all plants to a lesser or greater extent) with other plants and > MICROORGANISMS. > > Bistorta affinis is an abundant plant in many places in the mountains > incl. on Aphawat in Kashmir. Danthonia > cachemyriana was found to be common in rock crevices in Kashmir by Stewart@ > 2600-4000m. > > IF species belonging to other genera or families can be recognised in the > field they can help "track down" > colonies of a species especially those less conspicuous when not in flower > - which is the case for many > terrestrial orchids. No doubt in the Himalaya as for the UK colonies > fluctuate from year-to-year. > > *I AM SURE YOU WOULD ENDORSE THE WARNING ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHING TERRESTRAL > ORCHIDS* > *(we don't have epiphytic ones in the UK). CARE MUST BE TAKEN NOT TO > DAMAGE/TREAD ON/SQUASH* > *NON-FLOWERING, YOUNGER SPECIMENS GROWING NEAR TO THE SPECIMEN IN FLOWER > ONE MAY* > *WISH TO PHOTOGRAPH.* > > Yes, we must always be BRACING ourselves for taxonomic and nomenclatural > changes - *and* > *differences of interpretation/opinion....* > > *I must comment that ALL we can say, with all due respect, at this stage, > because the Himalaya is so vast and so little explored, * > *is that a particular species has been RARELY observed. IT MIGHT indeed > be genuinely RARE and PROBABLY is, for **Androcorys pugionformis** but > some species **of all sorts of genera and families are often > over-looked. This species certainly cannot be described* > *as common, locally or otherwise.* > > *Even in the UK which is smaller and has had literally thousands of > botanists exploring for centuries, we do not fully* > *know the distribution well of all species.* > > After all, I spotted what seems to be Herminium monorchis at the edge of > Khelanmarg on a single, brief visit, yet this species was > not mentioned in 'Plants of Gulmarg' (1984) so had not been observed by > local botanists for decades and this is a highly accessible > location, visited by many. There are lots of parts of Kashmir seldom > visited by botanists. *To be fair, I could return to the same spot* > *and not find 'Musk Orchid' in flower or indeed any evidence of > above-ground foliage.* > > I have only seen a few species of orchid in the UK despite having been an > active field botanist in the early 1980s. Unless one visits suitable > habitat one RARELY comes across them - SOME species are RARE but not all of > them by any means. This year I photographed (for the first time) > Dactylorhiza fuchsia after being shown a colony at the non-flowering > stage. This orchid is LOCALLY common on chalk. It is not found anywhere > near to where I live and normally walk. See: > https://sites.google.com/a/shpa.org.uk/main/uk-travel-blog-2015-16 > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Pankaj Kumar <sahanipan...@gmail.com> > *To:* J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com>; C CHADWELL < > chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia < > indiantreepix@googlegroups.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, 20 December 2016, 4:54 > *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:259591] Re: Is this Herminium monorchis > 'Musk Orchid' photographed on Khelanmarg? > > Andocorys pugionformis has been reported from Jammu and Kashmir, Himachal > Pradesh, Uttarakhand (Garhwal), Nepal, India (Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh), > Bhutan, Tibet and China.from elevation above 3000m (to be precise from 2700 > - 5000 <2700%205000> m). There had been recent records from Nepal and > Uttarakhand (around 2004) > Just for information, there is a group in China who are revising the genus > and hence be ready for some major changes again. I assume they will put > everything back into Herminium along with some Platanthera too. > Habitat (copied from J.S.Jalal D.Sc thesis (2011): Occurs in alpine > meadows between 3600 and 4000m and prefers to grow in exposed meadows with > 2-3 individuals together with association of Danthonia cachemyriana Jaub. & > Spach, Bistorata affinis (D.Don) Greene, grasses, ferns and other alpine > herbs. This is a very rare species in the west Himalaya and due to grazing > pressures and other biotic activities in its natural habitat; this species > seems to be on > the verge of extinction. > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 10:13 AM, J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com> wrote: > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "chrischadwell261@btinternet. com <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>" > <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>> > Date: 20 Dec 2016 6:44 a.m. > Subject: [efloraofindia:259591] Re: Is this Herminium monorchis 'Musk > Orchid' photographed on Khelanmarg? > To: "efloraofindia" <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com > <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>> > Cc: <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>> > > Thanks Dr Kumar. > > Can you tell us of any recent records of *Androcorys pugionformis (Lindl. > ex Hook.f.) K.Y.Lang *in Kashmir or indeed along the Himalaya as a whole? > > On Sunday, December 18, 2016 at 5:08:59 AM UTC, JM Garg wrote: > > Thanks, Chadwell ji. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *C CHADWELL* <chrischa...@btinternet.com> > Date: 18 December 2016 at 03:40 > Subject: Is this Herminium monorchis 'Musk Orchid' photographed on > Khelanmarg? > To: "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com> > > > I began by thinking that it would be worthwhile to have images of > Herminium monorchis > taken in the NW Himalaya to add to those posted from Uttarakhand *and > that this post would* > *be quick and straightforward, however, it has not worked out that way but > always useful* > *to check things - even though rather time-consuming. It is all-too-easy > to casually assume* > *a plant belongs to a well-known species without ever examining it > closely, so you can be* > *aware of similar ones or spot differences/misidentifications of that > species.* > > *I have e.g. never looked at Herminium monorchis with a hand-lens @ x10 or > x20 magnification.* > > *I must admit that after ALWAYS wearing and regularly using a hand lens in > the UK and on my* > *early expeditions to the Himalaya, I used one less and less - in part > because seldom is such detail* > *available/used in local floras.* > > I photographed on my most recent visit to Kashmir an orchid at the edge of > Khelanmarg, which I > took to be Herminium monorchis. > > See images 1-5 below. > > Not being an orchid specialist, I have never taken much notice of them, > unlike some who make a > special effort to track down every member of Orchidaceae they can. > > Having complex flowers, those with smaller-sized flowers require > close-inspection. > > I first came across this orchid beside the Sind River at Sonamarg during > the Kashmir Botanical Expedition > of 1983. It was also found along irrigation channels of cultivated fields > in Miyah Nullah whilst leading > botanical tours in Lahoul in the mid-1980s. > > Flowers of the Himalaya record it in forests and marshy ground in drier > areas @ 3000-4300m from Pakistan > to Central Nepal, Tibet, China, N.Asia, Europe. > > Stewart recorded it from N.Pakistan incl. Baltistan and Ladakh @ > 2400-4200m. > > However, 'Plants of Gulmarg' by Naqshi, Singh & Koul (1984) do not record > Herminium monorchis *but do* > *list Herminium pugioniforme* on the basis of a 19th Century record by > Aitchison - as does Stewart, who found > it near Mt. Kolahoi in the Upper Lidder Valley. None of the other orchids > they list seem likely. > > *So, had I mistaken what I though was H.monorchis for H.pugionforme, which > I had never heard of, or* > *the Musk Orchid had been missed on Khelanmarg?* > > *It seems that H.pugioniforme is now Androcorys pugionformis (Lindl. ex > Hook.f.) K.Y.Lang, see:* > > > http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/ge tImage.do?imageBarcode=K000387 532 > <http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000387532> - *it > is impossible to say much on the* > *low resolution image of this pressed specimen at Kew (at least to my eye, > unfamiliar with orchids).* > > *However, there are a number of close-up images:* > > https://www.google.co.uk/searc h?q=%22Androcorys+pugioniformi > s%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_r d=ssl&imgrc=JkmWSuh6HdVErM%3A > <https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Androcorys+pugioniformis%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl#gws_rd=ssl&imgrc=JkmWSuh6HdVErM%3A> > . > > *My initial impressions are that Herminium monorchis seems more likely but > I would welcome the thoughts of others?* > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BEs > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com > <indiantreepix+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to indiantreepix@googlegroups.com . > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix > <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > > -- > ************************************************************ > ********************************************************** > *Pankaj Kumar*, Ph.D. > *IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia* > > *Office*: > > Conservation Officer > > Orchid Conservation Section > > Flora Conservation Department > > Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation > Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. > > *Residence*: > House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen > Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. > *email*: pku...@kfbg.org; sahanipan...@gmail.com > *Phone*: +852 2483 7128 <2483%207128> (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 > 9436 6251 <9436%206251> (mobile); *Fax*: +852 2483 7194 <2483%207194> > > > > -- ****************************************************** **************************************************************** *Pankaj Kumar*, Ph.D. *IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia* *Office*: Conservation Officer Orchid Conservation Section Flora Conservation Department Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. *Residence*: House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. *email*: pku...@kfbg.org; sahanipan...@gmail.com *Phone*: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile); *Fax*: +852 2483 7194 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. 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